"The Real Threat to Democracy: A Conversation with Rick Wilson"
The podcast delves into the ongoing political battle against Trumpism, emphasizing the urgent need for unwavering resistance to the threats against American democracy. Speaker A articulates that the fight against Trump is not just a temporary struggle but a long-term commitment, highlighting the Lincoln Project's role in mobilizing opposition to pro-democracy candidates. The discussion shifts to the current political landscape, analyzing the challenges faced by Democrats and the crucial need for effective communication strategies that resonate with voters. Amidst the complexities of modern campaigning, the hosts stress the importance of adapting to social media dynamics and the necessity for Democratic leaders to connect authentically with a diverse electorate. As the episode unfolds, it underscores the significance of winning at all costs, challenging the notion that civility can triumph over the aggressive tactics employed by their political adversaries.
The latest installment of MUC U features an engaging conversation with Rick Wilson, a prominent figure in political commentary, who delves into the ongoing threats posed by Donald Trump and the Republican Party's strategies. Wilson reflects on the evolution of the Lincoln Project, emphasizing their commitment to combatting the authoritarian tendencies that have emerged in American politics. The discussion touches on the organization’s successes in recent elections, where they helped to secure numerous victories for pro-democracy candidates, but also acknowledges the challenges that remain, particularly in light of Trump’s continued influence and the shifting dynamics within the Republican Party. Wilson articulates a palpable urgency in the fight against Trumpism, arguing that complacency is not an option and that the stakes for American democracy are higher than ever. The episode is marked by a candid examination of the political landscape, the importance of resilience in the face of adversity, and a call to action for those who believe in preserving the tenets of representative democracy.
Takeaways:
- The Lincoln Project remains committed to fighting against the ongoing threat posed by Trump and his supporters.
- Despite winning many races in recent elections, the challenge of Democratic internal issues remains significant.
- Trump's ability to mobilize his base and the implications of his potential return to power are concerning for American democracy.
- There is a growing recognition among voters that Trump’s policies may hurt them economically and socially.
- The importance of addressing cultural issues and engaging with disenfranchised voter demographics is paramount for Democrats.
- Future political candidates need to be effective communicators who resonate with diverse voter bases to succeed.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Lincoln Project
Transcript
Foreign.
David Wheeler:Welcome to MUC U with our great friend Rick Wilson.
David Wheeler:This is David Wheeler and my co host, Mo Davis.
Speaker A:Hey guys, how are you?
Rick Wilson:Hey, good morning, Rick.
Speaker A:It's been a minute.
Speaker A:Good to be back with you.
David Wheeler:Hey, good to see you, my friend.
David Wheeler:Well, I thought we'd check in with you.
David Wheeler:You know, we've run parallel tracks with you over the last couple years.
Speaker A:Sure, sure.
David Wheeler:Where do you guys stand at this point?
David Wheeler:Where is, where is Lincoln Project headed and what are your thoughts on the next, you know, the short term future?
Speaker A:Here, look, here's the real, here's the real thing about this.
Speaker A:I follow the Alexei Navalny rule.
Speaker A:You are not allowed to quit.
Speaker A:Trump won an election.
Speaker A: eat him or helped beat him in: Speaker A: races we ran in: Speaker A:And, and, and we have, you know, we, we ended up moving our numbers right on, right on the money once again.
Speaker A: publican votes than we did in: Speaker A:Now that wasn't on something that we could change.
Speaker A:That was on the Democratic Party's, you know, internal campaign issues and on some other things that, that were happening out there that we couldn't alter.
Speaker A:But our commitment wasn't, we're going to fight as long as it's easy.
Speaker A:Our commitment was we were going to fight until we stop this threat to the American Republic and to representative democracy, which I think if anything has happened in the last week, we've seen that that threat is as real as we always told people it was and as pendant and as dangerous as we always told people it was.
Speaker A:And anybody who wakes up in the morning and goes, you know, we don't need to fight against Trump, we need to all get along.
Speaker A:To put, to put it as mildly as I can is a fucking idiot.
Speaker A:And this is a fight that is gonna, is gonna require people who don't blink and don't panic and, and don't bow down.
Speaker A:And for good or for good or bad at Lincoln, we don't panic and we don't bow down.
Rick Wilson: n Project back in December of: Rick Wilson:Did you have any idea that it was going to continue on this long or did you think that?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:No, absolutely not.
Speaker A: th of: Speaker A:They were going to keep trying, keep cheating, keep doing everything they could to gain and retain power and that, and that it wasn't as easy as beating him once.
Speaker A:And, and I knew, and I got a lot of shit for it.
Speaker A:I said In December of 21, I said, Trump will run again, he will win the Republican nomination, and we will be right back at this.
Speaker A:And I got, I had people from the left who were pissed at me, from the right who were pissed at me.
Speaker A:Everybody said, oh, no, no, that could never happen.
Speaker A:It's never going to happen.
Speaker A:Oh, Trump's gone, it's over, it's done.
Speaker A:But it wasn't.
Speaker A:And, and we have to be honest about the fact that, that our system is not capable of, of a, of a consistent response to a threat like Trump.
Speaker A:It, it just, it, we, we, we get fired up about it and, you know, January of 21, and even Republicans are like, no more.
Speaker A:We're done.
Speaker A:This is unacceptable.
Speaker A:We can't have this guy around.
Speaker A:And then we're right back to it with them all bending the knee by the spring of 23.
Speaker A:And all of these things that, that we've said about Trump, that he's going to be an autocrat, that he's going to abuse the power of his office, that he's going to be a dangerous figure.
Speaker A:None of that's changed.
Speaker A:It's all true.
Speaker A:It's always been true.
Speaker A:He, he is better organized this time.
Speaker A:They understand the levers of power more, more, more in a more granular way than they did the last time.
Speaker A:So our fight goes on and look, our goal right now.
Speaker A:And again, I did not want to have to keep doing this.
Speaker A:I wanted him to go away.
Speaker A:I want, you got to finish the job.
Speaker A:And so the job is still ongoing and we're still in the fight.
Speaker A:We've, you know, we're focusing on a big thing right now, which is fighting Trump on these nominations and fighting Trump on these early policy moves is important, not just because it's the right thing to do in the short term, but it's important because as we go forward, we've got to lower Trump's approval rating as much as we can between now and the end of this year, get it down into the 30s so that we go into the fight in 26 with the ability to take back the House.
Rick Wilson:What do you think happens?
Rick Wilson:I mean, at some point, you know, Trump's 78, he's fatty.
Rick Wilson:You know, he's not going to be around forever.
Rick Wilson:It seems to me like he's a unique personality, this, able to, you know, hold this tag.
Speaker A:What happens when he does?
Speaker A:I will say this, and I think people should take some hope from this and and the, the, the, I wrote about this this morning on my substack about Ron DeSantis and the analogy I gave.
Speaker A:It's easy to look at, at authoritarians and bullies throughout political, modern political history.
Speaker A:When they are strong, they look really strong.
Speaker A:But sometime at some point, they all break in the end.
Speaker A:So In Florida, Ron DeSantis, before he ran for president, was an incredibly powerful governor.
Speaker A:He, he, I ruled with an iron fist in the state.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:It was, it was remarkable how much the legislature would do for Ron DeSantis.
Speaker A:Sided with him in every fight, did whatever he wanted all the time.
Speaker A:He runs for president and it got even more exaggerated.
Speaker A:And they, they were passing bills so that he could run on them.
Speaker A:He was, they were, they were, they were letting him run roughshod over all of their legislative priorities and wouldn't say a word.
Speaker A: to run for president again in: Speaker A:And everyone knows it in the Florida politics system and that he came to them and said, I need you to do these immigration things.
Speaker A:That made Trump's immigration stuff look like, look like nothing.
Speaker A:That made Trump's immigration stuff look like a, like a love tap.
Speaker A:It was so crazy and so over the top that the Florida House, which is more MAGA than Mike Johnson's caucus, by the way, and the Florida Senate said, no, Nope, fuck you.
Speaker A:And DeSantis has been melting down in real time for the last three days because of that.
Speaker A:It's a real lesson that when Trump, when Trump's numbers right now are at 45, his approvals at 45, it's going to drop.
Speaker A:That number will go down.
Speaker A:He will continue to have failures as he's having right now.
Speaker A:Look, a lot of his people right now are very unhappy.
Speaker A:Why are they unhappy?
Speaker A:They're unhappy because Donald Trump has, has absolutely started to hurt his own people.
Speaker A:When you're talking about cutting veterans health care, when you're talking about cutting suicide hotlines, when you're talking about cutting snap, when you're talking about cutting disability, when you're talking about wrecking the economy with either tariffs or these mass deportations, people are slow, but finally figuring out they've been played.
Speaker A:This is as good as it ever gets.
Speaker A:So as he starts to show, you know, the, the collapse of his political power draining out as every second term president does.
Speaker A:Bush dropped 14 points after he announced he was going to privatize Social Security.
Speaker A:That, that doesn't, these things don't work well.
Speaker A:But as that starts to collapse, he's going to have More and more trouble intimidating people that he's the future.
Speaker A: ort of gigantic food fight in: Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Do I think that Trump's going to try to plan some dynastic BS where Don Jr runs?
Speaker A:I also think that may be the case.
Speaker A:He clearly is a, is a, is monarchy.
Speaker A:Curious.
Rick Wilson:Yeah, I just can't.
Rick Wilson:It's hard to imagine though, Junior stepping into his shoes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, it is, it looks at the.
Rick Wilson:Stones to do it.
Speaker A:Trump has a unique set of, of predicates about him.
Speaker A:The, the, the 40 year image campaign to, to make him seem like he's a great business leader.
Speaker A:15 years on the Apprentice where millions of Americans watched him play a character on a game show of being a strong business leader and strong negotiator.
Speaker A:All of it, all of it has a very, you know, bespoke kind of effect on who, how people think about Trump.
Speaker A:And I don't, and Junior does not have that.
Speaker A:But they will try for this dynastic play.
Speaker A: in a, if you're in a fight in: Speaker A:All he has to win is, you know, 10, 15, 20%.
David Wheeler:Do you really think Junior would run?
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
David Wheeler:And is he viable even in the Republican Party or in the.
Speaker A:Look, the Trump name is a powerful force in, in, in this world.
Speaker A:The Trump name is a very powerful, very powerful tool.
David Wheeler:Yeah, I know, but he, But Junior is such a idiot.
Speaker A:Yeah, but Donald Trump's not exactly an intellectual, a towering intellectual figure either.
Speaker A:But look, I, I think it's all right now, very much, you know, a forward facing problem.
Speaker A:We don't know what the world looks like in, in four, in three years, if he gets in trade, wars, all these things, if the economy has an externality, either a market crash or something else happens, if AI starts to lead to millions of jobs going away very quickly, which it certainly could, all of those things could lead to a political climate where people go, okay, we gave this a shot, we're done now.
Speaker A:But we don't know that yet.
Speaker A:We just don't know that yet.
David Wheeler:And what about in Florida?
David Wheeler:Desantis is term limited.
David Wheeler:Who's gonna fill the magus shoes there?
Speaker A:Well, look, you've got, you've got Matt Gates wants to be governor.
Speaker A:You've got Byron Donalds, the member of Congress from southwest Florida wants to be governor.
Speaker A:You've got Wilton Simpson, the current agriculture Commissioner, which is a big powerful job in Florida, wants to be governor.
Speaker A:You've got Casey DeSantis wants to be governor.
Speaker A:There are a lot of.
Speaker A:There are a lot of people who.
Speaker A:There are a lot of people who want that job.
Speaker A:It is the third most power, the third largest state in the country.
Speaker A:And, and in all of this, you know, you're going to see the same thing.
Speaker A:They're going to look to Trump for a lead on who should be the one, just as they did when DeSantis ran.
Speaker A:I mean, Matt Gaetz is a very clever politician, whether you like him or not.
Speaker A:He's a, he's a fucking degenerate, but he's a clever politician.
Speaker A:Byron Donalds is very.
Speaker A:The Fox crowd in some ways with like the Rupert Murdoch primary will decide a lot of this race in a lot of ways.
David Wheeler:But, but who would you put your money on right now?
Speaker A:Byron Donalds.
David Wheeler:Yeah, that's interesting because.
David Wheeler:That's interesting because Mo ran against, I think he's position.
Rick Wilson:Yeah, Madison.
David Wheeler:He's positioning himself for Donaldson's seat, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, he's down there now and I think that is definitely a, a real possibility that he's going to make that run.
Rick Wilson:You know, it's funny, he, you know, he has spilled the beans about the Republican cocaine orgies when he was up on Capitol Hill and.
Rick Wilson:Yep, it's like the Matt Gates thing.
Rick Wilson:You know, he may be one of the few times in his life Cawthorn was telling the truth.
Speaker A:Yeah, Madison is a.
Speaker A:Madison is a perfect example that the disqualifying thing, the things that would disqualify anyone in the eyes of MAGA would are campaign assets when they're on the list of, of people that they like and they favor.
Rick Wilson:Yeah.
Rick Wilson:You know, I find it interesting, you know, the Lincoln Project.
Rick Wilson:I know it's.
Rick Wilson:I mean, you're not like a country club conservative.
Rick Wilson:You were, you know, in the trenches, you know, back in the day.
Rick Wilson:And also on your board, you got Joe Trippy, you know, who helped my, my campaign.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Rick Wilson:Certainly, you know, on the opposite, Joe.
Speaker A:Was a damn warrior, man.
Speaker A:I love him.
Speaker A:He is like, damn, you two guys.
Rick Wilson:Working together, which are like kind of the both ends of the spectrum, you know, it kind of makes me hopeful that there, you know, there are people on both sides that are concerned about democracy and right and wrong and not so much about having an R D next to your name.
Speaker A:That's, that's.
Speaker A:Look, that is exactly how we approach this is, is if you wake up every day and you say, we can disagree on policy.
Speaker A:We can have fights all day long about, about, about policy, but we've got to protect this, the rule of law, the Constitution, the, the, the, the fundamental things that make America possible.
Speaker A:If you're not fighting that fight every day, then, then you know, the country will be in meaningful danger as we go forward.
Speaker A:Nobody's going to have a, nobody's going to look at America and say that is a great country.
Speaker A:That is, that is the kind of country we want to emulate.
Speaker A:If we are in a world where, if we're in a world where the, the rule of law doesn't exist, if we're in a world where the President is a king, those things are really tough for people to, to, to, to grapple with when they, when they're stuck in their old political lane that they were in for generations.
Speaker A:And look, Stuart Stevens and I, you know, we fought for and elected Republican governors and senators and congressmen and presidents and everything else.
Speaker A:And Joe did the same thing on the Democratic side.
Speaker A:But we all have an agreement that, that the danger we face right now is so, so stark and so, so, so immediate that we can't, we can't let anything stand in the way of, of waging a fight against people who would destroy the things that make a, that make a modern Western democracy possible.
Rick Wilson:What do we, you know, I looked at it, I see like you and Joe Trippy working together.
Rick Wilson:You know, I see, you know, Taylor Swift and Dick Cheney on the same side, you know.
Speaker A:Right.
Rick Wilson:I thought going into the election in November that, you know, when people that diverse are on the same team, that there's a real possibility of winning.
Rick Wilson:And what do we do wrong?
Speaker A:Well, look, there, there's, there are a couple of little things and a couple of big things.
Speaker A:The big thing was that Biden was still the functional incumbent and he was president during a time of terrible economic stress and the voters didn't forgive him.
Speaker A:The Democrats failed.
Speaker A:The Democrats thought that they would propose responses to, to inflation and job loss in the post Covid era just by saying, we're going to do the right thing and we're going to pass these bills to inflation reduction, Infrastructure Pact act, all these other things that were good, they were good things to do, but they didn't spend the period of time they needed blaming Donald Trump for those things that happened.
Speaker A:So Trump got to skate for the first year of the campaign.
Speaker A:Biden, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna all talk about this for a long time.
Speaker A:He should not have run again.
Speaker A:We were not it was not our job at Lincoln to tell the Democrats who to pick for their nominee, but he should not have run.
Speaker A:Again, the debate drove down his.
Speaker A:I mean, that, that, that then led to this period of, of time where Trump could build and build and build.
Speaker A:Harris was a fine campaigner and a good candidate.
Speaker A:I don't, I don't, I'm not going to hear from people, oh, she was a terrible candidate.
Speaker A:She was a fine candidate.
Speaker A:She had to put together a campaign in very short time.
Speaker A:It wasn't today's campaign.
Speaker A:In some ways, it was a great campaign built by a bunch of guys who'd elected Barack Obama, who are all very smart guys, but it didn't efficiently understand the depth of the disinformation ecosystem on the right.
Speaker A:And that disinformation ecosystem is powerful, permanent, dangerous, and something that we are not as a country, that we are not as a country ready to face up to that problem.
Speaker A:And we need to, we've got to get that under control.
Speaker A:We've got to get our heads together on what it means to be a nation where 50% of the population believes in this catalog of imaginary demons.
Speaker A:Those things have got to be faced and faced quickly.
Speaker A:And if we don't, we're going to have the same thing again.
Speaker A:There were also some culture things that divided the country that Harris's campaign could not grapple with appropriately.
Speaker A:And the number one thing was the trans issue.
Speaker A:And that trans issue, we knew it was causing a problem, not because of anything Harris did, but because we saw what was happening with Republicans.
Speaker A:They were spending money on anti trans ads everywhere in state Senate races, in state House races, in local school board races.
Speaker A:And Trump was spending tens of millions of dollars a week on the, on the trans ad because it was working.
Speaker A:The reason it was working, you knew it was working because they were spending the money.
Speaker A:Republicans do not spend money on things that don't work.
Speaker A:So the, the difficulty, the difficulty of, of the Harris campaign and Future Ford grappling with that issue is one that disconnected them from a lot of people.
Speaker A:Young white men 18 to 40, young black men 18 to 30, young Hispanic men 18 to 30.
Speaker A:They were all moved by that issue.
Speaker A:They are uncomfortable with it.
Speaker A:They didn't like it.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:And whether that's good or bad is irrelevant.
Speaker A:It's real.
Speaker A:It's what, it's what is really happening in their, in their heads.
Speaker A:So we're, we're in a, we're in a situation where, you know, if you miss cultural cues and they missed the cultural cue on that they missed the cultural cue on, on some of the immigration language.
Speaker A:Harris almost got there.
Speaker A:She started talking about being tougher on the border than Trump, and it was working.
Speaker A:But they never had the juice behind it to, to, to, to outweigh Trump on immigration because he could always go, try to go further on it.
Speaker A:So that's, that's, that's, I think that's sort of the explanation.
Speaker A:And look, a lot of Democratic voters were pissed off at, at Harris over Gaza and Palestine and, and Hamas and Israel who stayed home.
Speaker A:We could have won Michigan if they had not stayed home or voted for Jill Stein.
Speaker A:Like idiots a lot of them were.
Speaker A:There were a lot of disgruntled Democrats who, you know, wanted their people, their person.
Speaker A:Like the, you know, Josh Shapiro's people were never thrilled with Harris.
Speaker A:And, you know, I, I, we think we could have done better in Pennsylvania maybe if it was Josh Shapiro, who knows?
Speaker A:But they should have been making it a full court press and, and a lot of Democratic voters just didn't show up.
Speaker A:And that's on them.
David Wheeler:You're absolutely right in it.
David Wheeler:And I think, you know, Mo and I tried to run tough campaigns here in North Carolina.
Speaker A:Yeah.
David Wheeler:Mine for the state Senate and Moe's for Congress.
David Wheeler:And the Democrats are scared shitless to say anything bad about the other guy.
Speaker A:Yep.
David Wheeler:And where does that come from?
David Wheeler:And okay, I will tell you there.
David Wheeler:I mean, you've been around this game a long time, my friend.
Speaker A:I will tell you, I will tell you.
Speaker A:One of the reasons they don't do that is their pollsters tell them over and over again.
Speaker A:The, the, the American people want us to get along and work on solutions together.
Speaker A:People tell you that in focus groups.
Speaker A:It's a lie.
Speaker A:It's insane.
Speaker A:It doesn't work.
Speaker A:And the Democrats have taken that bait.
Speaker A:And the Republicans will play that game with them all the time.
Speaker A:You saw it today.
Speaker A:Ron Johnson during RFK Jr's hearing was like, can't we just all work to make America healthier?
Speaker A:And shouldn't we all be working together?
Speaker A:And it's just a total, it's a total scam.
Speaker A:It's a scam from top to bottom.
Speaker A:And these people on the Democratic side, they want to believe in the best in people.
Speaker A:And unfortunately, the counterparty in this equation believes in one thing, and that's winning.
David Wheeler:That's right.
David Wheeler:And Democrats, as Mo points out, would rather go sit in a cafe and have chamomile tea than win sometimes.
Speaker A:Listen, I say this to people a lot.
Speaker A:When you grow up in the Republican Party, In Republican politics, as a young consultant, as a young operative, you get two lessons right away.
Speaker A:Lesson number one, Just win, baby.
Speaker A:Do whatever it takes to win.
Speaker A:Lesson number two, Stay on message.
Speaker A:If you have an issue with lesson number one, refer to lesson number two.
Speaker A:If you have an issue with lesson number two, refer to lesson number one.
David Wheeler:Exactly.
Speaker A:That is how it works in the Republican system.
Speaker A:And people don't have to like it, but it's what has made them effective for decades in campaigning.
David Wheeler:Yeah, and I also think this adult.
David Wheeler:We gotta be the adults in the room.
David Wheeler:And if we lose, who cares?
Speaker A:Yeah.
David Wheeler:No, my God, we got to get over that, man.
Speaker A:Look, it is for all the marbles now, guys, this is.
Speaker A:This is for.
Speaker A:For.
Speaker A:This is the whole ball game Now.
Speaker A:None of this.
Speaker A:None of this makes any sense.
Speaker A:If you look at it.
Speaker A:If you look at it with.
Speaker A:With the existential challenge of.
Speaker A:Of what Trump represents right now.
Speaker A:And if you don't understand as a political operative, as a campaign operative, that you are going to lose the entire ball game if you let these people run roughshod over you and you don't go out and win elections no matter what it takes.
Speaker A: , I'll never vote for Project: Speaker A:I'm not going to vote to ban abortion.
Speaker A:I'm not going to guess what.
Speaker A:They were lying.
Speaker A:Every one of them was lying.
Speaker A:And so right now, these people are in.
Speaker A:Are in Congress.
Speaker A:And it goes back to a rule I learned years ago.
Speaker A:Guy says, I don't want to run these negative ads.
Speaker A:They're so terrible, they're so cruel.
Speaker A:I'm embarrassed by them.
Speaker A:And the consultant in question said, all right.
Speaker A:So on election day, the guy says, it makes me feel like a scumbag.
Speaker A:And so the consultant said, all right, so on election day, you want to wake up the next day, do you want to be the honorable scumbag or just a scumbag?
Speaker A:Because do you want to win or not?
Speaker A:And winning matters.
Speaker A:Winning is the big shit.
Speaker A:Winning is the big deal.
Speaker A:Pretending that you're.
Speaker A:That you're some virtuous, like, pious person who.
Speaker A:Who's above negative campaigning and above tearing the bark off of people the hell out of here.
Rick Wilson:You know, Democrats are listening to you.
Rick Wilson:You know, David and I down here in North Carolina in the congressional race, we want to get rid of Cawthorn because he was just horrib.
Speaker A:Terrible, terrible piece of shit.
Rick Wilson:Yeah.
Rick Wilson:So, you know, the numbers are against us.
Rick Wilson:So what we encourage people to do is to register as independent.
Rick Wilson:And then you could vote in the Republican primary and get the least worst of the, of the living.
Speaker A:Right.
Rick Wilson:And then the Democrat.
Rick Wilson:And then the Democrats said, oh, my God, you're, you're making a game of this.
Rick Wilson:You're gaming the system.
Rick Wilson:And it's like, you know, we're playing the rules.
Speaker A:Allow it.
Rick Wilson:We're not saying break the law.
Speaker A:Right.
Rick Wilson:We got to use the rules to our advantage.
Speaker A:And that's the correct, that is the correct answer.
Speaker A:If the rules, if the rules present an advantage for you, use the rules to your advantage.
Speaker A:Don't pretend that, that you're, that some sort of virtue in your life will prevent you from winning.
Speaker A:You want to win, you got to win.
Speaker A:You want to, you want to do this, you got to do this.
David Wheeler: at showed that we moved about: Speaker A:Right.
David Wheeler: d the margin on that race was: Speaker A:Sure.
David Wheeler:And the Democrats are still pissed, though, that we did.
Speaker A:Is it, is.
Speaker A:There is, there is nothing, there's nothing I can say to people in the Democratic process to express to them more clearly how much they, the Republican culture is willing to go out and say what needs to be said and do what needs to be done to win.
Speaker A:Winning is what matters to them.
Speaker A:If you don't want to win, then you're not going to win.
Speaker A:That's a, that's a pretty serious, you know, and, and simple thing to understand.
Speaker A:This is a simple equation.
Speaker A:Win or lose, up or down, good or bad.
Speaker A:If you don't want to win, you're going to, you're.
Speaker A:There are plenty of ways not to win.
Speaker A:For people who don't want to win, there are plenty of ways for them to say, I'm too good for this.
Speaker A:I'm too, I'm too, I'm too kind to say these bad things.
Speaker A:I'm too, I'm too principled to run this negative campaign.
Speaker A:Fuck off.
Speaker A:Win or don't.
David Wheeler:Exactly.
David Wheeler:Exactly.
David Wheeler:Go ahead, Mo.
Rick Wilson: be here in North Carolina in: Rick Wilson:We've got, you know, Tom Tellis is up.
Speaker A:Yep.
Rick Wilson:Roy Cooper, our governor was term limited.
Speaker A:Yep.
Rick Wilson:You know, and Cooper won twice in North Carolina on the same ticket that Trump won.
Rick Wilson:So we're.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:North Carolina, North Carolina is not, is, is, is.
Speaker A:It is still a truly purple state.
Speaker A:There are some very red aspects of North Carolina.
Speaker A:There are, there are, but the demography and the geography of the state still means Democrats can compete and win there.
Speaker A:And I think they should be really looking at North Carolina with a sense of, of, you know, being a national model.
Speaker A:In some ways, they should want to be a national model for how Democrats can win, even in rural areas.
Speaker A:And it's not just policy, it's culture.
Speaker A:It's not just, it's not just promising to pass Bill X or bill Y.
Speaker A:It's promising to listen to everybody and, and to not reject the things that are that, that the Republican Party has weaponized so cleverly with its base.
Speaker A:You know, Democrats who can talk about their faith have about a 60 chance, better chance of winning a contested race than otherwise.
David Wheeler:That's right.
Speaker A:It, it is something that, that, that a lot of Democrats are not comfortable with.
Speaker A:They don't want to do it.
Speaker A:They're like, I could offend a Muslim constituent, I could offend a Jewish constituent, I could offend a Catholic constituent.
Speaker A:Talking about your faith and your values is not a bad thing.
Speaker A:It's a good thing.
Speaker A:And Democrats are sold to their, to the Republicans.
Speaker A:They sell to their base all the time.
Speaker A:Democrats are Satanists, pedophiles, weirdos, academics, intellectuals, arrogant elite.
David Wheeler:Yeah.
David Wheeler:And Democrats, we've got to figure out a way to turn out African American voters again.
David Wheeler:I mean, we've, that's where we're losing it.
Speaker A:Listen, I here with a very well known Democratic consultant and I got this, like, don't presume you know what African Americans are going to do.
Speaker A:You're a Republican, this and that.
Speaker A:I'm like, you guys really need to focus on the fact that you have a meaningful chance of losing African American men because they're not with you on a bunch of things now.
Speaker A:I mean, I, I had a conversation the other day with a, with a Democratic member of Congress who called me and said, you know about guns, you know, gun stuff, gun politics.
Speaker A:And she said, in my district, I'm hearing from a lot of Hispanic women and African American women who are now buying guns in their, their.
Speaker A:And they're.
Speaker A:Because they feel unsafe, Mike.
Speaker A:Yeah, because it's a cultural thing now.
Speaker A:All the black and white things we used to think that people automatically did because they were black or Hispanic or female, those are all changing now.
Speaker A:And they're changing really, really rapidly.
Speaker A:I just think it's important we, we not.
Speaker A:If we ignore African American men, the signal they're sending, we're going to lose them and they're going to lose them as a majority.
Rick Wilson:Yeah.
Rick Wilson:Rick, you think one of the things that really, the moment.
Rick Wilson:There are a lot of things Trump's doing that concerns me.
Rick Wilson:But one that's kind of at the top of the list is what's going on with Mark Milley.
Speaker A:Unbelievable.
Rick Wilson:How do you see this ending?
Speaker A:Very, very badly.
Speaker A:I have to be.
Speaker A:I have to be honest.
Speaker A:I admire General Millie tremendously, but I think they're.
Speaker A:The effect that they're.
Speaker A:They're going to try to make an example of him.
Speaker A:They're going to try to make.
Speaker A:They're going to try to.
Speaker A:They've taken a security detail away, they're going to try to put him in danger, they're going to try to publicly humiliate him.
Speaker A:And to be honest, they're going to succeed at making him into a demon for their people, making him into a criminal for their people.
Speaker A:It is repulsive.
Speaker A:It is repugnant.
Speaker A:It is disgusting.
Speaker A:But look, I think General Milley needs to, in this case, like, run to the sound of the guns.
Speaker A:If he thinks he can hide from this fight, I think that's wrong.
Speaker A:And lawyer the fight alone, I think that's wrong.
Speaker A:I think he needs to go out there and just call it like it is and not, not tolerate the bullshit from these people, to own that what he did and to say what he did.
Speaker A:Because Trump is a bully and Trump's not good at people fighting back against him.
Speaker A:I think Milley has the opportunity to do that and frankly, you know, become sort of a figure that, that, that.
Speaker A:Look, we know Mark Milley, but most people don't know Mark Milley.
Speaker A:I think it's important that he have this fight in public, and the louder and more public it is, the harder it is for Trump to fuck him.
David Wheeler:Exactly.
David Wheeler:Do you think he'll do it?
Speaker A:I'm encouraging it.
David Wheeler:Okay, good, good.
Speaker A:All right.
David Wheeler:So we talked about Trump.
David Wheeler:We've talked about the past.
David Wheeler:Let's talk about the current situation.
David Wheeler:And then I've got one more question, and I'll turn it over to MO and then we'll call it a day.
David Wheeler:Okay, so what's the worst case scenario you see in the next.
David Wheeler:We'll say in the next year for America.
Speaker A:Trump declares a state of emergency, declares some sort of sweeping new executive powers to protect American sovereignty from some imaginary terrorist or imaginary immigrant attack, and uses Cash Patel and Pam Bondi at the FBI and doj, respectively, to deploy federal prosecutions and federal arrests against his political opponents.
Speaker A:That's, that's, that's pretty high on America not being America much longer.
David Wheeler:Right.
David Wheeler:And we had Pamela Hemphill on earlier.
David Wheeler:She's talking about plan B.
David Wheeler:Are you aware of this I have.
Speaker A:I talked to Pamela today, but not.
David Wheeler:About plan D.
David Wheeler:Well, about the fact they want to set up their own tribunals.
Speaker A:Yes, they.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:There will be.
Speaker A:That will happen on the.
Speaker A:On the.
Speaker A:On the.
Speaker A:On the January 6th matter in particular.
Speaker A:They're going to try to do citizens arrests of Liz Cheney and whatnot.
Speaker A:And I think it is a very.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I don't think.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:It is a very dangerous world we'll be living in as they do that.
David Wheeler:All right, well, if you need any assistance with what Guantanamo Bay is like, I'm sure Monk will tell you, having been the chief prosecutor there.
Rick Wilson:Been there, done that.
Speaker A:Been there, done that.
Speaker A:Right.
Rick Wilson:Yeah, I guess that's where I met Desantis.
Rick Wilson:I mean, he.
Speaker A:Right.
Rick Wilson:He was there briefly.
Rick Wilson:We overlapped.
Rick Wilson:He was a peon.
Rick Wilson:It never occurred to me when I met him back then that he'd be where he is today.
David Wheeler:You know, who on the Democratic side of you do you think can hit back, do you think has the balls to take on these in a way that has any effect?
David Wheeler:Now, Nome is a good guy, but isn't he kind of Kamala Harris times two?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Look, Gavin is.
Speaker A:Gavin is a charming individual who will get his head caved in if he runs for president.
Speaker A:California is a different place than it was in the heart and mind of the American people since Ronald Reagan ran for president.
Speaker A:It's a very different place.
Speaker A:A lot of the things that they do in California are disqualifying.
Speaker A:Are disqualifying for a lot of voters in the country.
Speaker A:So I don't think Nome is the guy.
Speaker A:I would look for people who are better on social media.
Speaker A:I look for people who are unafraid.
Speaker A:So it's aoc, it's Jamie Raskin, it's Eric Swalwell, it's Jared Moskowitz.
Speaker A:You want to fight this fight where the fight is happening, and that is not in the old traditional, like, let's go on Meet the Press and talk it out.
Speaker A:I think you've got to go out and have a real fight.
Speaker A:A real fight in.
Speaker A:In this.
Speaker A:In this space that.
Speaker A:That is fought, like I said, on that territory.
Speaker A:On that.
Speaker A:On that.
Speaker A:On that.
Speaker A:That terrain of social media and.
Speaker A:And podcasting and everything else.
David Wheeler:Right.
David Wheeler:All right, Rick.
David Wheeler:But she didn't ask the question who.
David Wheeler:Who is.
David Wheeler:Who's somebody you think can do that?
Speaker A:Well, look, I mean, for president, we got a lot of choices in that.
Speaker A:Like, we got a lot of choices.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's too early for that.
Speaker A:I'm not going to pick horses at this point.
Speaker A:But, you know, like I will tell you, there are plenty of people who are tremendously impressive.
Speaker A:You know, Gretchen Whitmer comes to mind, Shapiro comes to mind, and some other folks that, that are sort of dark horses out there.
Speaker A:Andy Bashir, impressive as could be.
Speaker A:A lot of these people will shake out in the next couple years.
Speaker A:They'll look at it, they'll decide if they can or can't or should or shouldn't do it.
Speaker A:But it is going to be, it is going to be important to have somebody who connects with America, who communicates with America in a way that, that works.
Speaker A:I mean, I had one of the biggest Democratic donors in the country.
Speaker A:I mean, in the top, top five for sure.
Speaker A:Ask me what do we need next time?
Speaker A:Who is it that we need for next time?
Speaker A:Sort of your question.
Speaker A:I said, I don't know who it is yet, but I know what it is.
Speaker A:It's a brilliant communicator.
Speaker A:It's somebody from the Midwest or the south, and it's, it's a veteran.
Speaker A:And those three things together matter more than policy or, or can they, can they go in the room, in a, in a room in Hollywood or New York or Boston or Seattle and make people happy about their ideological predicates?
Speaker A:You need a winner.
Speaker A:You need somebody who feels like, sounds like, looks like, walks like, talks like a winner.
Speaker A:And, and that is the real challenge.
Speaker A:And, and the other part of the challenge is of course, keeping this from becoming a third Trump term next time around, which is a constitutional fight.
Speaker A:That is, that is one that I, I, I both dread and anticipate.
David Wheeler:What about Mark Cuban?
Speaker A:I think the absolute world of Mark Cuban, I think he is a guy who, you know, it's like Mark Cuban's abilities to communicate and to actually implement reform like his Cost Plus Drugs company take on a hard problem, solve the hard problem, make life better for people.
Speaker A:Holy shit.
Speaker A:That's what I want, a president.
Speaker A:I think as an outside force, a person like Mark Cuban or Mark himself would be a very interesting, a very interesting play.
Speaker A:And, and look, he's not afraid to go mix it up either.
Speaker A:He's not a go, not afraid to go talk to people that, he's not afraid to go talk to people on the right, on the left.
Speaker A:He's not afraid to go jump into the pool.
Speaker A:And I think that's really important.
David Wheeler:And he, and he doesn't have the gene, from what I can tell.
Speaker A:You know, he really doesn't.
Speaker A:And, and I like the fact that he he's affable, he's friendly, he's a, he's a good dude.
Rick Wilson:You're talking about communication, and I guess that's, to me, one of the challenges we're really facing is now that, you know, the right has kind of taken over social media.
Rick Wilson:And I follow you on Twitter and I see you, you know, going toe to toe on there, and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that my wife is one of your biggest fans.
Rick Wilson:I'd be eating baloney sandwiches the rest of the week if I didn't get that in there.
Rick Wilson:But, you know, the rights taken over social media, they've, you know, they've beaten the mainstream media into submission.
Rick Wilson:So communicating is getting harder and harder for folks on the center in the, in the left.
Speaker A:It is.
Rick Wilson:How do we, how do we punch through this?
Speaker A:Look, social media is still a viable area of, of engagement and communication.
Speaker A:There are a lot of, you've got to work a lot of platforms now that you can't just be on Twitter or just be on Facebook or just be on Insta.
Speaker A:You kind of have to play the whole field.
Speaker A:And it's exhausting because I'm like, oh, I got to post this on threads and on blue sky and on Twitter and on it.
Speaker A:All of that stuff.
Speaker A:You know, you, you can't, you can't walk away from social media now.
Speaker A:But the, the, the, the traditional press is increasingly, they've increasingly capitulated to Trump, whether de facto or de jure, and it's not pretty.
Speaker A:And it's harder and harder to say, oh, I should definitely invest, you know, all this time to pitch a story to CNN when they fire their best, their, their, their best news anchor in the day part and send him, tell him he's going to be on the midnight shift because he has offended Trump.
Speaker A:You know, it's, it's, it's a tough, the, the media landscape is tough.
Speaker A:The disinformation aspect of it is really tough.
Speaker A:And we've got to be cognizant of the fact that half of America believes a lot of stuff that is not true.
Speaker A:They believe it because Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk built systems that tell them that, that they're being, that they're living in a dark world where all the immigrants are trying to kill them and, you know, everyone's a Satanist and whatnot.
Speaker A:It's a really, it's a tough assignment, honestly.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's a problem that's above my pay grade, unfortunately or fortunately.
David Wheeler:Rick, thank you so much for your time.
David Wheeler:You're a terrific man and a great American.
Speaker A:Thank you, guys.
Speaker A:I appreciate that so much.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I appreciate both of you for the hard work you're doing up in in one of my favorite parts of the universe.
Speaker A:I will talk to you guys again soon.
Rick Wilson:Thanks, Rick.
Speaker A:This has been Muck you, hosted by Colonel Mo Davis and David Wheeler.
Speaker A:Muck you is produced by American muckrakers.
Speaker A: Copyright tonight,: Speaker A:You can learn more about us and donate to support our work@AmericanMuckrakers.com.
