Adam Kinzinger: A voice of reason in a sea of absurdity.
Representative Adam Kinzinger lays it all out on the podcast, painting a grim picture of the current political landscape, likening it to the decline of Rome—how charming. His take is that the backstops that used to reign in chaos, like the DOJ and the military, are vanishing faster than a magician’s rabbit, leaving everyone feeling a bit unmoored. He’s particularly miffed at the Democrats for being caught with their pants down, failing to whip up a solid strategy in the face of rising extremism. The underlying theme? Fear is the name of the game, and it's driving many a politician to choose loyalty to their party over their principles—how original. Kinzinger’s call to arms? We need to collectively shoulder the responsibility of saving democracy while not losing our minds in the process, because let’s face it, that’s the real trick.
Navigating the turbulent waters of contemporary American politics, Adam Kinzinger, a former congressman and a vocal critic of the Trump administration, spills the tea on the current state of affairs. He kicks things off with a rather dismal assessment of the political landscape, likening it to the waning days of the Roman Empire where the Senate seemed to exist solely to serve the whims of an emperor—quite the image, right? Kinzinger expresses his frustration not just with Trump’s reign, which he believes has descended into a reality more absurd than a bad sitcom, but also with the Democratic Party's apparent impotence in countering these developments. He points out that the Democrats seem to be caught with their proverbial pants down, failing to mount any substantial response to a crisis they had months to prepare for. His dire prediction? We’re in for a rough ride, and the question looms: how much damage will be done before the tide turns?
Takeaways:
- Representative Kinzinger expresses deep concerns about the current political climate, comparing it to late Rome where senators serve the emperor's whims rather than the people's needs.
- The discussion highlights the absence of traditional checks and balances in American politics, as Kinzinger notes the diminishing role of military and law enforcement as a stabilizing force.
- He argues that the political landscape has shifted dramatically, with many once-respected figures now compromising their values to align with extremist factions.
- Kinzinger stresses the importance of maintaining hope and collective action, encouraging listeners to take a break when overwhelmed, rather than giving up entirely.
- The former representative reflects on the need for a centrist coalition within the Democratic Party to attract voters disillusioned by extremism on both sides of the aisle.
- He emphasizes that winning elections is crucial for implementing policies, warning Democrats against alienating potential allies in the political sphere.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- USAID
- Elon Musk
- Amazon
- Penguin
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Our guest today is Representative Adam Kinzinger.
Speaker B:Welcome, Representative Kinzinger, how are you?
Speaker A:I'm good.
Speaker A:Good to be with you guys.
Speaker A:Thanks for having me.
Speaker B:Where do you think we are with Trump?
Speaker B:What are your general thoughts and any impressions that you want to share with us in the audience?
Speaker A:Yeah, look, we, you know, I had like two scenarios after Trump won that I said this is going to be, it's either going to be, you know, not great, but we'll get through it, you know, whatever, or it's going to be extremely bad beyond our wildest dreams.
Speaker A:And I think we're in the extremely bad beyond our wildest dreams.
Speaker A:And what, what concerns me, you know, as we're recording this, all these, we're getting all this indication that there's, you know, these Republican senators will be voting for RFK and Tulsi Gabbard people that we thought wouldn't, you know, actually Thom Tillis was supposed to vote against the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, and then in the last minute change that.
Speaker A:You know, there was some anger about it, but there's this intimidation and it feels like we're in, it's like late Rome where the Senate existed simply to do the work and the bidding of the emperor.
Speaker A:And it feels like that.
Speaker A:I think the thing that concerns me more than anything is, you know, we always knew or assumed that there would be a backstop to any bad thing that happens.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If somebody breaks the law, there's the DOJ or the FBI.
Speaker A:You know, when I'm sitting in my office on January six, I knew that in the very worst case scenario, there's the US Military that can clear the bills building.
Speaker A:I feel like those backstops are gone.
Speaker A:And, and unfortunately, I feel like right now the Democrats have been caught flat footed.
Speaker A:And I'm angry about that because they've had three months to come up with a plan and it feels like there's just nothing going on.
Speaker A:And happy to talk more about that, but I feel like we're in a really concerning moment.
Speaker A:And I guess I'll say, you know, my hope is, and I guess my assumption still is that they're going to go too far and there's going to be a backlash.
Speaker A:But the question is, when is that?
Speaker A:How much damage?
Speaker A:And, you know, do people just kind of lose their belief in honesty and government?
Speaker A:That's a concern of mine.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:What do you think happened with, I mean, like, you know, you and I both served in the Air Force, and there, there are other folks like, you know, I'm an attorney.
Speaker C: er did in the military was in: Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker C:And then later, when I was the senior attorney at Columbus, Mississippi, one of the reservists in my office was Roger Wicker.
Speaker C:So those are two people that, you know, military backgrounds, that they're both attorneys or smart people.
Speaker C:And I know they know better than doing what they're doing.
Speaker C:So what do you think happened that made, you know, good people go bad?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker A:So, listen, I think it's a couple of things, but, but most importantly here, you know, with Lindsey Graham, I mean, the guy is apolit political animal and all he ever wants to be, all he ever could see himself as being Senator.
Speaker A:Now, he's different than a lot of people, but, you know, for him, he's a great, He's a good politician in that he understands what he needs to do to survive.
Speaker A:And I think that's got a lot to do with it.
Speaker A:He also, look, I mean, let's be clear.
Speaker A:He needs an alpha.
Speaker A:McCain was his alpha.
Speaker A:And then, you know, Trump became his Alpha.
Speaker A:He needs somebody that he can kind of lean on for whatever reason, I think, you know, and Wicker again.
Speaker A:So here's the broader issue on, you know, why is it that so many of my colleagues in the House and so many in the Senate.
Speaker A:Look, I think people fear more than they fear death.
Speaker A:They fear being kicked out of a tribe.
Speaker A:I mean, if you think about it, I think 8 out of 10 adults seeing a kid, you know, about to get hit by a train would jump in front of the train and throw the kid out of the way to save their life.
Speaker A:But very few are willing to go against their tribe because we're tribal people, we're tribal animals.
Speaker A:And I'll tell you, somebody that went through it losing, when your entire friend group is basically based on politics and all of a sudden now you're going to turn against them.
Speaker A:That's a hard decision to make.
Speaker A:And I think there's lot to do with that.
Speaker A:And I think there's a really, a broader issue specifically in the military to talk about.
Speaker A:But I think on our, on our, the politician side, a lot of it is, look, you lose a lot when you turn against, when you turn against your party.
Speaker A:Your party is basically your nation in your mind.
Speaker C:You mentioned the military.
Speaker C:I'm curious about your thoughts with.
Speaker C:I mean, it really concerns me what's happening with, with Mark Milley and the effort to go after him.
Speaker C:And Pete Hedge, Seth is the Secretary of Defense.
Speaker C:It's just in my view a horrible choice.
Speaker C:I was always a big advocate.
Speaker C:You know, I was a law professor for a while and I encouraged a lot of young folks to consider a career in the military.
Speaker C:Right now, I don't know that I would do that.
Speaker C:The commander in chief we've got and a secretary of defense, it both can't meet the standards we demand of an 18 year old recruit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:What are your views on the military now?
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:Look, it's, it's a real concern because again, the backstop we always had like, you know, if the crap hits the fan, it's the end of the world.
Speaker A:You know, from a government perspective we always knew that we could trust the military and you know, again, worst case scenarios, the military could be the backstops.
Speaker A:And I, I don't think that feeling exists.
Speaker A:And I, I have a big concern about the fact that, look, you know, when I, I just retired about a year ago from the Guard and a lot of the guys I flew with, and specifically by the way out of Mississippi, you know, these are lieutenant colonels that are, you know, I'm flying an airplane with them and they're telling me qanon conspiracies that they believe again, college educated generally, I guess I'll call them, you know, high ranking, kind of feel great office that are buying into these conspiracies.
Speaker A:And I think what's happened in the military, it's a number of things, but I think part of it is this broader issue of, and I think there's a little criticism that goes to the left into the Democrats on this as well as men in general.
Speaker A:For the last 10 or 15 or 20 years, really 10 or 15 years, men have not provided or talked about what it is to be a man to the younger generation of male, you know, I actually think masculine traits are great.
Speaker A:I think a masculine trait is defending the defenseless, punching up, not down, you know, protecting your family, fighting for a cause that's masculine in my mind.
Speaker A:And unfortunately over the last 10 or 15 years there was this kind of movement that we had to be ashamed of being men.
Speaker A:Everything was toxic, toxic masculinity.
Speaker A:And I think what happened is the younger generation of men felt very isolated, they felt alone.
Speaker A:They didn't know what their purpose in this world was.
Speaker A:And then a guy comes along and actually is toxically masculine.
Speaker A:It has toxic masculinity.
Speaker A:Donald Trump and says, look, here's what masculinity is.
Speaker A:It's yelling, it's it's tweeting in all caps, it's being mean to women, it's being racist.
Speaker A:And in the vacuum of an example, men were drawn to that.
Speaker A:And I think that's why we as men, by the way, have to fight back against that and provide and talk about what real masculinity is.
Speaker A:But I think some of that has leaked into the military where, you know, obviously the military is largely male.
Speaker A:As it's gotten younger, you're seeing the same trends there.
Speaker A:And I think there's a lot of, and, and it's a real concern.
Speaker A:I mean, sure, there are still some Democrats in the military.
Speaker A:I'm not saying that, but there's this like perception that in order to be tough, you have to be a Republican.
Speaker A:And I actually think Republicans of late are the whiniest, weakest bunch of people out there.
Speaker C:Yeah, you mentioned the, you know, people you flew with that are, you know, educated, seemingly intelligent people.
Speaker C:You know, it seems like we live in a world now where, you know, you lies or truth, facts are fiction, cruelty's Christian vices, virtue.
Speaker C:How do you reason with people that are detached from reality?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, it's, what's the old Bible verse?
Speaker A:It's like woe to him that calls good evil and evil good.
Speaker A:And I feel like that's, that's the moment we're in.
Speaker A:And how do you reason with them is like, look, part of it, I've come to believe many of them you can't reason with.
Speaker A:Let's just, let's be clear about that.
Speaker A:And you know, they, they their highest calling.
Speaker A:And I think this is a result of 20 to 30, actually 30 to 40 years of AM radio, Fox News, you know, the Internet of just the enemy of you is the left.
Speaker A:The left is the enemy.
Speaker A:And that's what people have been taught to believe.
Speaker A:And so even when it comes to things like QAnon, even if you put them on CIA truth juice and they're like, yeah, I don't believe the QAnon stuff, they'll still advocate for it because it's no longer about actual issues.
Speaker A:It's just about my tribe against the tribe that I hate.
Speaker A:I think that is, is a big part of it.
Speaker A:Secondarily, I do think we've gotten to a point in this country where we're going to have to touch the stove.
Speaker A:You know, you have a, I have a three year old, you have a toddler that is determined to touch the stove.
Speaker A:You can try to stop him.
Speaker A:And I think for the last look however many years, the same Republicans in Congress, you know, the same Democrats, most Democrats like, have been protecting the country from the consequences of Donald Trump and people like Donald Trump.
Speaker A:And I think we're going to have to touch the stove.
Speaker A:I mean, that's why, look, I'm against the Trump's talking about, but there's part of me that's like maybe we need to just do the tariff.
Speaker A:So finally people can see that what this guy is saying is bs and unfortunately, I fear that's going to have to be what we, what we have to wake up.
Speaker A:Because I'm not sure and I'd be curious if you guys disagree.
Speaker A:I'm not sure.
Speaker A:Reasoned arguments with a number of these people.
Speaker A:Now, there's a lot that, you know, maybe voted for Trump that can be reasoned with.
Speaker A:I'm not saying that, but the hardcore, I think it's just about the left is the enemy and there's nothing you can tell me otherwise.
Speaker B:Oh, I think we agree with you on that front.
Speaker B:I think it's very difficult to break through with facts with this gang.
Speaker B:What do you think the way forward is for thoughtful folks that realize we're in the middle of a shitstorm, but you know, we're looking for some hope somehow.
Speaker B:How do we get through this together?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I'll say this.
Speaker A:If I didn't believe there was hope, honestly, I'd stop doing this.
Speaker A:I would, I, I'd move to a different country or at least do something else.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because I, I have to worry about my mental health as well as everybody does.
Speaker A:And you know, again, I really believe that if you Quantum Leap, one of my favorite show from the 90s, if you quantum leap like five or ten years forward, this country will be past Donald Trump and there won't be very many people alive that will ever admit they.
Speaker A:So because I think this is going to end so poorly that, that, that's the case.
Speaker A:So that's the, that's what gets me driving is I know that, you know, in, in historical years, I'm 46 years old, I look back and say four years of my life was like, it goes by enough.
Speaker A:And so this four years will go by in a flash, even though it doesn't necessarily feel like it.
Speaker A:And we'll have an opportunity to correct this on the other end or to, to, to make the country as we think it should be made, but that's not automatic.
Speaker A:And, and I want to be clear that that's why it's important for us to keep, to keep working at It.
Speaker A:It's going to be things like doing these podcasts, like putting out statements on Twitter or, like, talking to the people, you know?
Speaker A:But the other thing I'll say, which I think is really important, is take the burden.
Speaker A:I say this to everybody, including myself.
Speaker A:Take the burden to save the country.
Speaker A:Take it off your shoulder.
Speaker A:Now, what I mean by that is we all carry around this, like, feeling that, gosh, like, there is something out there that I can do that will save this country.
Speaker A:I just don't know what it is.
Speaker A:And so we find ourselves spinning our wheels, throwing out, you know, 20 tweets a day, writing, whatever, because we think, you know, there's this human nature that it's like we're going to strike gold at some point and be the person that saves this country.
Speaker A:And I've got to be honest, we're not.
Speaker A:None of us are.
Speaker A:But as a collective, we can.
Speaker A:And how do you win as a collective?
Speaker A:You take the burden to save the country off your shoulders so that you can stay in the fight.
Speaker A:Because how many people.
Speaker A:I know a ton.
Speaker A:And I'm sure you guys all know a ton that were great warriors for the cause, that are not.
Speaker A:That have given up, that have said they don't.
Speaker A:They're not paying attention to news anymore.
Speaker A:They're not listening to what's happening because they just hit their breaking point.
Speaker A:And, you know, Mo, you know, especially with your past work, people have breaking points, and.
Speaker A:And that can be brought on, you know, through different means.
Speaker A:So let's not.
Speaker A:Let's not get ourselves to that.
Speaker A:Let's maintain a sustainable way that we can fight in this together.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I think that's the best advice I can.
Speaker A:Don't give up hope.
Speaker A:And if you feel like you're about to quit, take some time off, because the, you know, your next tweet is not going to save the country, but your involvement and you staying together.
Speaker B:And I would just add, it's.
Speaker B:It's not just the country I get.
Speaker B:I have friends in France and the UK are urgently sending me emails as if I'm in government or something.
Speaker B:What are you doing to help?
Speaker B:What are you doing to stop this guy?
Speaker B:I mean, what.
Speaker B:Well, I filed some lawsuits, but there's not a lot I can do as this crazy guy in North Carolina.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So one more question about politics here, Elon Musk.
Speaker A:And by the way, can I just say real quick, thanks for.
Speaker A:Thanks for running against that dude.
Speaker A:What a.
Speaker A:What a.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I just have to say that that's.
Speaker B:To Mo.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Mo Davis.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, Mo, that's right.
Speaker B:Your buddy Cawthorn.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know the worst part about Cawthorn Rivers on Kinzinger, he played as if he got his injury in the military.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And that he did.
Speaker B:Disgusting.
Speaker A:Yep, he did.
Speaker A:He did.
Speaker A:He played that.
Speaker A:And he really kind of the early line of this.
Speaker A:He was on the kind of the front lines of this suspend reality Donald Trump stuff.
Speaker A:And the crazy thing is he could have been so good.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If people like this would go and he could have advocated for those with disabilities.
Speaker A:He could have, you know, fought for a healthy conservative future.
Speaker A:There's all these people, there's a lot of people without test me but there's all these people with talent that just blow it on whatever this cult.
Speaker A:But sorry, I interrupted your question.
Speaker B:No, no, that's anytime we can bash on Cawthorn or, or Lauren Boebert, we're all, trust me, same Mo and I probably know know more about those two individuals than they know about themselves.
Speaker B:But so not by choice.
Speaker B:Yeah, choice, exactly.
Speaker B:So one thing that's on my mind a lot lately and I think a lot of folks is Elon Musk.
Speaker B:Do you have a relationship with this guy?
Speaker B:Have you met him?
Speaker B:His is, has he supported you?
Speaker B:And if not, you know, how do we shut this down?
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:Yeah, this is crazy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And also I do hesitate.
Speaker A:I'm sorry I didn't say thank you for the work you guys are doing all altogether.
Speaker A:And I think it's important that we take on, you know, individuals that are acidic and you know, with Hawthorne race for instance, we, my organization country first got involved with turning out Democrats to vote in the Republican primary to vote against him.
Speaker A:And I think we've got to think strategically like that and then go after in the general elections.
Speaker A:This is, this is all going to be important, particularly David and I got.
Speaker C:Reprimanded by the Democrats here because, you know, we did the exact same thing.
Speaker C:We said let's play by the rules.
Speaker C:And the rules permit you to register as unaffiliated and vote in the Republican primary.
Speaker C:I mean the numbers here just, you know, Democrats can have a really hard time winning, so why not take him out out in the primary?
Speaker C:And the Democrats here just pounced on us saying, oh, you're, you're treating this like it's a game.
Speaker A:Well, and this leads to a bigger problem, by the way, which is.
Speaker A:And this happened in Illinois too.
Speaker A:I mean, by the way, I wasn't going to run again, but I got redistricted out.
Speaker A:They didn't know I wasn't, but the Democrats redistrict me out in the middle of the January 6th stuff on that.
Speaker A:Look, on the Elon side of things, his brother actually supported me.
Speaker A:And I don't know what his brother's up to now.
Speaker A:I don't know if he's, you know, deep into the Elon stuff or if he's still a little more sane than his brother.
Speaker A:You know, I.
Speaker A:I've read Elon's or the book about Elon, and his brother was always kind of a calming force.
Speaker A:Elon, I'm going to be honest with you, is one of the scarier individuals out there because, you know, we all know the role of money in politics.
Speaker A:And this guy spent 200, and I think the latest was $290 million to elect Donald Trump.
Speaker A:And let's be clear.
Speaker A:He elected Donald Trump.
Speaker A:Donald Trump.
Speaker A:You know, if a bird would have sneezed west instead of East 2 Wednesdays before the election, you know, Kamala would have won because it was a 1% swing.
Speaker A:And, you know, anything can affect that.
Speaker A:And so a $290 million campaign to turn out swing state voters certainly did.
Speaker A:And now Donald Trump, who doesn't care about the rule of law, is letting him run ramshot over the federal government illegally, by the way.
Speaker A:So I put out a video yesterday, and actually it's.
Speaker A:It went viral.
Speaker A:It's gotten about 303 million views of me.
Speaker A:Just saying, look to the Democrats, here's some free advice.
Speaker A:You guys need to, like, go to these places where the doge, which just to remind people, isn't even real.
Speaker A:You know, where they're in these organizations like usaid and you guys need to demand entrance, and the Democrats did later that day, and they weren't let in.
Speaker A:And I gotta tell you, you know, when I was a congressman, if I'd have gone to a federal building and they wouldn't have let me in, I would have made them arrest me because I had every right to be in that building as a.
Speaker A:As a member of the U.
Speaker A:S.
Speaker A:House.
Speaker A:I don't know why they didn't do that.
Speaker A:They still, you know, that's a good start.
Speaker A:Pushing back against Elon, pushing back against Trump.
Speaker A:If you're in the minority, you have one weapon in the House.
Speaker A:In the Senate, you've got, you know, the filibuster, but in the House, you have one weapon.
Speaker A:Your message.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:There's not much you can do except message.
Speaker A:And so that is what the Democrats have got to be spending their effort doing.
Speaker A:Now, obviously the numbers are so close in the House that there's a little more they can do there.
Speaker A:But in terms of like from November to this day, they should have been coming up with a plan stand for what if Donald Trump does this and Elon Musk does this, then what?
Speaker A:And they didn't.
Speaker A:And I don't know why.
Speaker A:But regardless, they didn't.
Speaker A:And so now it's about messaging and with, with Elon and, and the other thing, and I say this as a former Republican who used to be against lawsuits, right.
Speaker A:Donald Trump uses lawsuits.
Speaker A:His people use lawsuits.
Speaker A:We need to flood the administration in lawsuits because they are violating the law and they need to be basically frozen in place.
Speaker A:And so I would encourage that.
Speaker B:I saw your video yesterday and it was prescient.
Speaker B:And the problem is the Democrats go there locked out.
Speaker B:Why don't they go right down to the street to a judge, get a judge's order to go in the damn place.
Speaker A:Correct, correct.
Speaker B:And follow up instead of just making a big hoo ha out front, actually go into the damn place.
Speaker B:No, you go ahead.
Speaker A:Yeah, so the, the thing that, the thing that kind of drove me nuts, I don't fully know what happened there because, you know, I wasn't there.
Speaker A:I didn't see any live thing.
Speaker A:I just kind of read the article about it.
Speaker A:It again, if I was there, I would have been like trying to force myself in.
Speaker A:I would have had them arrest me, which they wouldn't have done or I'd have gone down, like you said, go down the street.
Speaker A:And even if they don't get that order file to get that order because you can't lock out the people that over like, yes, you can tell me I can't come into the White House at the moment, but you can't actually keep a member of Congress out of the White House long term.
Speaker A:You also can't.
Speaker A:You can keep them out of classified areas, but USAID isn't classified.
Speaker A:It is incredible that they're allowing this to happen.
Speaker A:And Tron Democrats, I've been in the minority and there's a lot of people that say you guys should be doing more.
Speaker A:And we're like, we are.
Speaker A:You just don't see it.
Speaker A:But I do think the demonstrable attempts to push back are really important.
Speaker C:It's ironic that, you know, we worry so much about like China having too much power in its strategic minerals or commerce, but then you've got Elon, who is effectively running the country, controls the space program, get the brain implant Thing going Starlink, Twitter, and everybody seems fine with one guy, you know, operating all the levers of power.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:And it's in, it's.
Speaker A:He's the largest contractor to the federal government.
Speaker A:The problem is, you know, I think the Biden administration should have taken more action about that, because when he made it clear that he was, you know, involving himself in US Politics, in overseas politics, they didn't.
Speaker A:Now, could they have done, I don't know.
Speaker A:I mean, and honestly, look, he, he does own the space program.
Speaker A:That's a problem.
Speaker A:That's a, that's a, that's an issue.
Speaker A:Obviously, the Trump administration won't do anything.
Speaker A:And so, you know, look, there's conspiracies out there that I don't buy, but I also don't dismiss that, like, you know, taking over the tax payment system like they're doing is, he's always said he wants X to be a payment platform.
Speaker A:Everything that oligarchies do has been done so far in what, you know, two weeks.
Speaker A:So I guess it's not out of the realm to think that, you know, now the oligarchs are going to be the ones supplying the federal government.
Speaker A:And again, the thing that still, at least for now, is working is the court system.
Speaker A:We need to fight this in the courts.
Speaker A:That's really the last fight.
Speaker A:Well, politically, but in the courts, too.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, back in, you know, and I, he says, one reason I don't gamble, I'm not really good at predicting.
Speaker C: But it seemed like in: Speaker C: site reason than I thought in: Speaker C: But to go from Obama in: Speaker C:How did we get there so fast?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker A:Look, I do think there is, it's, it's, you know, when Obama came in, there was the racial component to it.
Speaker A:And I don't, I don't want to be one that blames race and gender.
Speaker A:I think it plays a role.
Speaker A:I don't think it plays the main role.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, we're doing a disservice to winning elections in the future if we focus only on that, but it did.
Speaker A:And Obama comes in, he's a black man, and that allows, you know, the Fox News, the Rush Limbaugh types to stir up animosity.
Speaker A:He's, he was obviously fairly left and, and had an air about him that was kind of like, you know, very inspirational.
Speaker A:But you also could feel like he was out of touch with you.
Speaker A:And I think, and I don't think he was out of touch, by the way, but I think you could manipulate that into convincing the Midwest, for instance, which voted largely for Obama, that he doesn't care about you and he's ignoring you.
Speaker A:And of course, we had massive cultural changes during that.
Speaker A:We had massive economic changes and economic shifts, and the Republicans were just better.
Speaker A:I was part of this and I didn't realize what I was doing.
Speaker A:I can look back and see it now.
Speaker A:But the Republicans were part of this to say, look, you've been abandoned by the Democrats.
Speaker A:It was great politics.
Speaker A:It was just bad for the country.
Speaker A:And, and I think that's taken hold.
Speaker A:And this is where I think it's incumbent on the Democrats if I'm giving advice to them.
Speaker A:And I recognize I'm not a Democrat, although for the last two election cycles, I voted straight Democratic.
Speaker A:Take an interest in the LGBT stuff, like, great, we want to make sure everybody is treated fairly in this country.
Speaker A:But don't, I would say, don't channelize on identity politics.
Speaker A:I think identity politics isn't working.
Speaker A:And, and focus on protecting everybody.
Speaker A:That's important.
Speaker A:But focus on also giving a voice in protecting the rural Americans, the people that used to vote for you that now feel like you don't care about them, like whatever that is, to go in there and take an interest and point out where Donald Trump's tariffs or whatever are actually doing damage.
Speaker A:And here's the Democratic plan to make your life better.
Speaker A:This is going to be a 10 year to 15 year battle to win them back.
Speaker A:But I tell you what, it's always going to be 10 or 15 years away from when you start.
Speaker A:So you need to start today because if you start in a year, it's 11 or 16 years.
Speaker A:I mean, it's weird.
Speaker A:So, you know, obviously I have a college degree.
Speaker A:College educated voters that used to vote predominantly Republican are now voting Democratic.
Speaker A:There has been a, a shift in the electorate.
Speaker A:But if you were an economic voter in the 80s for, I'm sorry, if you were a social voter.
Speaker A:So if you were voting like for abortion or you were voting for whatever Democratic social policies were, you're still with the same party, party.
Speaker A:You know, if you were an economic voter, you've switched.
Speaker A:I mean, again, college educated are now voting Democratic and the other way around.
Speaker A:So that the Democrats need to get in there and say, what is the gusto that we lost.
Speaker A:How do we get that back?
Speaker A:And how do we care for these, you know, the minority populations that we care about, while also making it clear we're not caring for somebody at the expense of you.
Speaker A:We just truly care for everybody.
Speaker C:You mentioned you're not a Democrat, but you voted, you know, Democratic in the last couple of elections.
Speaker C:I'm curious what happens like, with, with you and Liz Cheney, Jo Walsh, Jen Rubin, Bill Kristol, traditional Republicans that, you know, now seem to be kind of outcast from your, your party.
Speaker C:I can't see any of you becoming, you know, Democrat.
Speaker C:What happens with you folks?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I think it's a, that's really a question for Democrats because, you know, what I've said is like this, this country has two parties, right?
Speaker A:And you know, people like me have said I don't want to be associated with the Republican Party anymore.
Speaker A:Now I'm maintaining my label because it's important for the message I have have.
Speaker A:It's important because I actually am not the one that changed.
Speaker A:I mean, as Ronald Reagan, you know, he used to say, the Democratic Party left me.
Speaker A:In my case, the Republican Party left me.
Speaker A:You know, I was a rising star for what, nine of my 12 years in Congress and nothing about me changed.
Speaker A:Now I'm the biggest outcast.
Speaker A:And so the question for the Democrats are, are you willing and this is tough to do, trust me.
Speaker A:I'm not saying like this is easy.
Speaker A:Are you willing to have kind of center right or center people in your coalition?
Speaker A:Are you willing to have somebody who may not, not think the exact same on abortion?
Speaker A:By the way, there's about a hundred different positions on abortion, not two.
Speaker A:You know, are you willing to have somebody like that as part of your coalition to have difference?
Speaker A:Because honestly, look, you guys know this politics used to be fun.
Speaker A:It actually used to be enjoyable to have a different view than somebody else and kind of debate it and you know, and stick with your position or change or whatever.
Speaker A:And, and I think having a coalition of people that have different views kind of on some of these issues, broadly believe in democracy.
Speaker A:Look, as a military guy, you know, look, you're in a trench.
Speaker A:The 5 meter target right now is the threat to democracy.
Speaker A:The 30 meter target is the things we disagree on.
Speaker A:I'm going to tell everybody in my trench focus on the 5 meter target.
Speaker A:That's your only thing you're focusing on until that's neutralized.
Speaker A:And so this coalition needs to be broad.
Speaker A:It's awkward and I could see myself as a Centrist Democrat, if that's a welcome thing.
Speaker A:As of now it isn't.
Speaker A:But I think that's either where we go go or else we're going to be politically homeless.
Speaker C:You think there's ever going to be a lane for a third party?
Speaker C:Like here in North Carolina, for instance, the largest, you know, registered block of voters are unaffiliated people that don't want to be a Democrat or a Republican.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, look, I, here's, I would love it, by the way.
Speaker A:I want to be very clear.
Speaker A:I would love a third party because I think if you had like a third party that was kind of centrist, it would actually drag both parties to the middle because you'd have to build coalitions that kind of existed back in the day when you had conservative and liberal Democrats and conservative and liberal Republicans.
Speaker A:But there's two big challenges to that.
Speaker A:One is simply the two party system has put up so many barriers to that that it's, it's, it's tough.
Speaker A:And you know, in Illinois, I vaguely for like 3 seconds thought, should I run for Congress as an independent?
Speaker A:And I looked, and to get on the ballot in Illinois as an independent, I needed something like 5 or 10,000 signatures on the petition of people that have never voted in a primary, by the way.
Speaker A:Now, to get on as a Republican, I needed 600.
Speaker A:So you can see the, the barrier there.
Speaker A:The other big barrier is, and I kind of alluded to this, it's our mental block, which is, look, let's say, you know, somebody's running for president as a centrist and everybody loves this idea.
Speaker A:And then it gets down to brass tacks and they're like, well, how do you feel about abortion?
Speaker A:And that person says, well, I'm, I'm pro life or I'm pro choice.
Speaker A:And then all of a sudden the people in the centrist coalition that are pro life are like, oh gosh, I can't vote if you're pro choice.
Speaker A:And they, they default back to the Republicans or the Democrats go, oh gosh, I can't vote for you if you're pro life and they default back.
Speaker A:We've been programmed to believe that every issue has two sides.
Speaker A:And like I said, it's very rare that it does.
Speaker A:Most issues have about 50 to 100 different positions and we have to think complex like that.
Speaker A:I'm not sure if we're capable of it yet, but that's got to be how we start to see things.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think Democrats have got a, have, you know, having been one my entire life and been a candidate staff behind the scenes.
Speaker B:You know, I think it's the far left that drags us in a way that we don't want to go.
Speaker B:And the problem is politics is set up for folks that have money.
Speaker B:I mean, if you're a county chair, you got to have time to do these sorts of things.
Speaker B:And, you know, working class folks don't have time to run a party.
Speaker B:So it ends up in the lap of somebody with a lot of free time and probably some money.
Speaker C:Money.
Speaker B:And the same thing with candidates.
Speaker B:You know, the candidates ended up having to, you know, subsidize a campaign and it ends up being the elite in the city or the urban areas.
Speaker B:And God, that's just.
Speaker B:It's going to be really tough for the Democrats to make any inroads.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then I think the other part of it, Adam, is that the Democrats have a problem with winning.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:They don't understand that that's what politics is about.
Speaker B:We can fight about implementing all this shit later on, but if you don't win, you're not going to have the opportunity to do that.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:What's, what's your advice for Democrats on that front?
Speaker A:Yeah, look, you know, it's funny because in the, in the aftermath of, of this election, you know, I've seen the comments from the far left that are like, you know, Harris made a mistake by having the Republicans, you know, so featured in her campaign and boy, if we'd have just gone further left, we'd have won.
Speaker A:Okay, that's not true.
Speaker A:But you know, the thing is, is when you actually look at the numbers, a lot of Republicans did vote for Harris.
Speaker A:The problem is a lot of Democrats voted for Trump to.
Speaker A:And because we're in the middle of this shift.
Speaker A:And so my warning to Democrats is as a guy that lived through a nascent far right movement in our party that grew.
Speaker A:Now, obviously there was a lot of far right Tea Party everything else, but like when I'm talking about the Freedom Caucus, the kind of super radicals, it grew.
Speaker A:And even though I fought them my entire time in Congress, there was this feeling that if we just embrace them them, we can bring them in and kind of turn them into normal Republicans.
Speaker A:And what happened is it's like trying to embrace cancer and hope that the cancer becomes like every other regular cell in your body.
Speaker A:It doesn't.
Speaker A:Cancer grows and it metastasizes.
Speaker A:Darkness spreads, it's hard to spread light, it's easy to spread dark.
Speaker A:So I would.
Speaker A:My warning to Democrats is, look, you know, I'm not saying reject the kind of the far left in your party, because obviously people have a right to believe what they want to believe.
Speaker A:Leave, but do push back against them taking over the or against that being the message of the Democratic Party.
Speaker A:And I think the Democrats have actually done a good job of that so far.
Speaker A:The other thing is, yes, this.
Speaker A:It's winning.
Speaker A:It's about votes.
Speaker A:I would much rather be in the position right now of Kamala Harris being president and this Democratic slash sane Republican coalition arguing a little bit over this nominee that she put up or, you know, this policy or this thing, thing.
Speaker A:That would be a much better position right now than the fact that we're all sitting back going, holy.
Speaker A:Democracy is legitimately being destroyed.
Speaker A:That's why winning is important.
Speaker A:Deal with the differences later.
Speaker A:I mean, if you think that you're ever going to get 51 with a party that is homogenous and believes the same thing, then you don't understand humanity.
Speaker A:My wife and I are pretty close together, and we disagree on so much crap that it's incredible.
Speaker A:And yet it's just two people there.
Speaker A:Now you take, you know, tens of millions of people in a party and say, you know, you can't have disagreements.
Speaker A:Well, that's unrealistic, and congratulations, you'll lose every election you ever get in.
Speaker A:Republicans are much better at it, and, you know, Democrats need to catch up.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So what's next for you, Representative Kinzinger?
Speaker B:Where.
Speaker B:Where are you headed these days?
Speaker B:Any politics in the future?
Speaker A:No clue.
Speaker A:I was hoping you guys would tell me.
Speaker A:No, look, I.
Speaker B:Well, I.
Speaker B:I don't know if you saw, during the campaign, I was advocating for you to be our ambassador to the UK so.
Speaker A:Oh, that would have been great.
Speaker A:I would have loved that.
Speaker A:That's awesome.
Speaker A:No, listen, I.
Speaker A:From my perspective, I don't know.
Speaker A:I mean, I'll be honest.
Speaker A:I wrestle every day with, like, I just.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I actually want to just walk away and go fly airplanes for United.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, honestly, it's.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:That's a.
Speaker A:That's a temptation because it's like, do I need this?
Speaker A:But then I also know that, you know, I was built in a way that I don't back down.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And, you know, in fact, that's what I've said when people have threatened to throw me in jail or send me to Gitmo, I'm like, freaking bring it, do it.
Speaker A:Because I'll be three times more effective from Gitmo as I am even from here.
Speaker A:And so I'M going to continue to try to be the voice that I can be.
Speaker A:I've got a, a year left right now in my CNN contract.
Speaker A:We'll see what happens after that.
Speaker A:Got a substack, which everybody does, but it's actually really successful.
Speaker A:And then whole bunch of, you know, country first is an organization I kind of, kind of considerate democracy building in the United States.
Speaker A:We're pretty good at that.
Speaker A:Overseas we were until all the funds were frozen.
Speaker A:We're not as good here, so that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:And in terms of do I run again?
Speaker A:I guess I've been out for two years now, so I've been able to take a break.
Speaker A:So I feel that fire to run again kind of coming back.
Speaker A:But I just don't know where that could be because I had mentioned I'm certainly not going to run as a Republican.
Speaker A:Could I fit in the Democrats?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:That's, that's a question.
Speaker A:But I would certainly be open to getting back involved if, if I thought that AI could win and I thought it actually could make a difference.
Speaker A:I'm not doing it for ego.
Speaker A:I did the ego thing that's been burned out of me and I'm not doing it for power.
Speaker A:I've had power that's been burned out.
Speaker A:It would be if I think we can make a real difference.
Speaker C:Well, I gotta admit I'm envious because I spent a lot of years in Washington.
Speaker C:I never made the Hills list of sexiest people on the Hill.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:It's tough competition, let me tell you.
Speaker C:Hey, you mentioned flying, so I gotta ask you, KC 135s or RC 26?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I prefer the RC any day.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:The 135i flew for two years and you know, it was fun.
Speaker A:And flying that 30, 000ft over Iraq, 28 years old, I'm like, I want to do something more down in the dirt with the guys.
Speaker A:And was lucky enough to find the RC26, which is a reconnaissance plane.
Speaker A:But we actually overseas, we were part of AFSOC Special Operations Command.
Speaker A:And you know, we were actually among the very first signals and you know, visual kind of reconnaissance planes there after the surge was announced.
Speaker A:And so I got to go over to Iraq as part of that.
Speaker A:And I saw firsthand the great work, frankly that we did in wrapping up, you know, Al Qaeda cells, Iranian cells and the surge, you know, worked and, and stabilized the situation there.
Speaker A:And I got to watch that firsthand stateside.
Speaker A:We flew counter drug missions which, you know, as guard members we could do domestic law enforcement, and I mean, we.
Speaker A:FBI, local, state law enforcement, chasing bad guys taking drugs off the street.
Speaker A:And unfortunately, the Air Force and their lack of infinite wisdom killed this program a year ago because, you know, it was a whole $20 million a year, mainly that was paid for by law enforcement agencies.
Speaker A:They wanted another tire for the F35.
Speaker A:And unfortunately, we lost a lot of great assets, but I prefer that any day.
Speaker A:It was a fun plane, great crew, and, you know, this is an Air Force guy guy.
Speaker A:Most of the time we didn't wear uniforms, and, and it was very relaxed.
Speaker A:So it was probably about the best gig.
Speaker A:It was like the last holdout of a true Air National Guard gig anywhere in the country.
Speaker A:So I was pretty fortunate.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I don't know about you.
Speaker C:I've been retired a lot longer than you, but I still find that I miss it.
Speaker A:You know, I, I.
Speaker A:Here, I'll tell you a funny story.
Speaker A:Last night I had a dream about flying planes in the Guard.
Speaker A:And every one of these dreams end up with me, like in the bar, hanging out with everybody.
Speaker A:And I'm not kidding, at least once a week, I have a dream like that.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's haunting in a good way.
Speaker A:Are you the same way?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C: And I've been retired since: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's sad and it's great, and, you know, I feel lucky to have been able to do it, but I tell people a lot of the times you're kind of, you're haunted, but you're haunted by the good times, right?
Speaker B:Representative Kinzinger, thank you so much for joining Mo Davis and myself in this, this Muckyou episode.
Speaker B:Do us a favor and give us country first and then tell us just briefly about your book and where folks can get that.
Speaker A:Yeah, so the book is called Renegade, and just Google it, it's Penguin.
Speaker A:So you can either get it from there or Amazon.
Speaker A:And way to kind of see my story from the perspective of what's happened to the Republican Party.
Speaker A:So it's like a microcosm that gives you a bigger view of what's going on.
Speaker A:I'm also on Substack, of course.
Speaker A:Adam Kinzinger, substack.com Do that.
Speaker A:And country first.
Speaker A:Country1st.com.
Speaker A:That is where we're doing a lot of cool stuff.
Speaker A:And in fact, we're, we're getting ready to send a mission to Ukraine for people to go, medical professionals, EOD professionals in humanitarian to go to Ukraine to help out there.
Speaker A:We get we've got a political side.
Speaker A:Of course we do to that.
Speaker A:We've got a humanitarian side and I consider it kind of what I want to do with country first is make it this launching point for this ground up movement in this country to change how we see things, change how we do things things and change how we interact.
Speaker A:So thanks for that opportunity and we'll take a look.
Speaker B:I got your book on audible and enjoying it right now when I'm off to pick up the kids every day.
Speaker A:So awesome.
Speaker B:Got a little kins and girl in the morning in the afternoon.
Speaker B:So anyway, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker B:Adam.
Speaker B:It's been a pleasure.
Speaker B:You're a great American.
Speaker B:Keep doing what you're doing, my friend.
Speaker A:You guys are too.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thanks for having me and look forward to coming back.
Speaker A:This has been an episode of Mucky you with guest representative Adam Kinzinger.
Speaker A:Today's podcast was co hosted by Colonel Mo Davis and David B.
Speaker A:Wheeler.
Speaker A:American Muckrakers produced this show and is responsible for its content.
Speaker A: Copyright: Speaker A:More information and a donation link is@americanmokrakers.com.
Speaker B:And guess what?
Speaker A:Lauren Bobert still has not sued.
