Politics Ain't Pretty: Rep. David Jolly Talks Faith, Freedom, and the Future

David B. Wheeler: 00:00:07

Welcome back to mucu, folks, where we cut through the noise and dig into the truth. No sugar coating, no spin, just the raw, unfiltered conversations that matter.

I'm David Wheeler and always I'm joined by my co host, the one and only Moe Davis. Take it, Moe.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:00:21

Hey, David, it's good to be back with you. And we got a great guest today. Today that we're really privileged to have on.

I'm assuming most folks that are listening to this podcast probably spend more time watching MSNBC than Fox News. And if you watch msnbc, you've no doubt seen David Jolly on there a number of times. He's a former Republican, former member of Congress.

Pinellas county, Florida from: 2014

I served on the Appropriations Committee and, you know, certainly since leaving Congress has been a regular feature on, on CNN and more so on msnbc.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:01:05

So David, really appreciate you coming on today. Thanks for doing this.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:01:08

Hey, it's great to be with you guys. I appreciate the invitation.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:01:10

Well, let's start out. You're, you're the son of a Baptist minister. So how did you get from the good Book to the cesspool of politics?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:01:19

You know, people would say, where'd you learn politics? And I, I'll say I learned it in the pulpit. I learned it in the church.

And sometimes the politics of the church, particularly those who grew up in it, you'll understand, might just prepare you for Congress. But, you know, it's a mode because I am wrestling with a lot, as we all are in the Trump era. And I left office and the party in 17.

You know, the truth is, I was never a good enough Republican. Even when I got in, I was kind of a Bush 41 Republican living in a Tea Party era. But after the breakup, I didn't jump into the Democratic arms.

I've been an independent for the last seven or eight years. And at my, I think what I have really discovered in my political journey is that my foundational beliefs are really in progressive evangelism.

Now, I say that I didn't grow up in a progressive evangelical church. My father was a Southern Baptist pastor in the south in an era where conservatism reigned and still does in the evangelical movement.

But I think my orientation in both faith and politics is what the label that Jimmy Carter often had put on him as a progressive evangelist.

And I think there are ways in today's environment to actually empower communities of faith to celebrate people of faith, but to do so within a constitutional framework that gives freedom to everybody and doesn't impose those foundational evangelical beliefs into statute or into law. And to be honest, however, you just start to describe politics, I'm a moderate, I'm socially conservative or socially liberal, whatever it is.

I think the bulk of people believe in the fundamental freedoms to celebrate your faith, but also to practice constitutional law and framework, if you will, in an area that gives the most number of people the most amount of freedom.

And I think there's a thread there for where our politics are, and I think it's why you see such great unrest and what we're seeing certainly on the right today, but you could argue a little bit on the left as.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:03:12

Well, I guess, similar to you. My, I didn't grow up in, you know, as the son of a minister, but I grew up with my grandmother, who was a Southern Baptist Sunday school teacher.

One of the things that burned into my memory forever is When I was 15, I got arrested for underage drinking. And I had. They called my dad, dad to come get me, and he said, no, I just keep him. And my grandmother had to come pick me up.

And I'll never forget that ride home with her some, almost 50 years ago now. But you mentioned Jimmy Carter. I mean, it.

It strikes me as ironic that the evangelical movement, you know, the folks that, you know, a lot of them in, on, on social media, they note Christian in their bio because you'd never know it otherwise from, you know, what they post. But Jimmy Carter, you know, he didn't just talk the talk, he walked the walk. And he's been, you know, kind of demonized.

And then the evangelicals have embraced Donald Trump, who seems to be, you know, whatever Jesus taught, he is the opposite of it. So how did we get here?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:04:12

Listen, I actually have a manuscript in my, my very first book, if I ever get the courage and the patience, might actually be on exactly a topic like this. Let's just go to the raw politics for a moment because this is fascinating. It is.

It is remarkable to me that the, the Republican Party and the Republican right and the evangelical right has lampooned and rejected and demonized two of the most religious presidents we've seen, certainly in modern history, but arguably in the history of the country, that being Jimmy Carter. And Joe Biden. And Joe Biden. Consider this. I mean, think about all the presidents. Go, go through it in your mind.

All of the modern presidents who spoke about their faith with greater passion Personal conviction, with respect for others, more than Jimmy Carter and Joe Biden. And what happened, I think the. The machine behind evangelical politics, the machine behind the Republican Party, realized we've got to.

We've got to reject these two. We've got to attack these two because they're shifting the power center to the Democratic Party, and that can't be. But it is easy to just beat up on.

On the party, the Republican Party, the evangelical movement. My take is a little different in this because I sit in the pews on Sunday mornings with all these folks. We worship the same God.

We believe in the same tenets of faith. I wish. I wish the evangelical church would throw away the crutch of politics that they currently rely on.

What I mean by that is I think the tenets of people's faith, and this applies across all faiths, right? From Judaism to Islam to Hinduism to evangelical Christianity. The calling of your faith is to win hearts and minds.

The Great Commission in the Book of Acts says, go build churches. It doesn't say, go build a political party.

And I think the moment that the church began to lean on the Republican Party as a crutch to advance a faith agenda, it weakened the church. And you can see it in the numbers. You can see it in people leaving the pews, people leaving organized church, organized religion.

And I think what has happened is the evangelical movement now relies on the. On the Republican Party as a crutch. And it's this mutual aid society, this codependency between the two.

And ultimately, what it's doing is undermining the faith community.

And it's a reason a lot of people today are what I call church hurt that they can't see themselves in the faith environment they used to see themselves in because it's become a political rally. Too many of our preachers sound more like Fox News hosts than they do faith leaders. And it hurts people when they see that.

And, you know, early on when I was in office, I was one of the very few Republicans who supported marriage equality, for instance. And my message to the church was this. This tenet of faith to celebrate marriage, being between a man and a woman.

If that's what someone chooses to practice as a tenant of faith belongs in the church house, you should own this as a. As a faith community, as an institution of faith. And if you believe it, you should evangelize it.

But the moment you turn to government to put it into statute, to put it into law, the church has actually lost its authority on what they consider to be a basic biblical Tenet, because now you've handed over that issue to politicians who will never be as faithful to the cause as a church should be. Now, I wouldn't suggest that same sex marriage should be denied in any case.

Actually, I prefer to be a part of a church community that recognizes God made everybody and you should love who you want to love.

But the basic principle holds through in so much of our politics today, the church is leaning on the Republican Party as a crutch party, is welcoming it to do so. But in the end, the church isn't achieving much.

What they're doing is they're undermining their own status as leaders of faith in this country and around the world. And I think it's, it's broken a lot of hearts of people of faith.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:07:48

Yeah, it really has. I mean, where I'm, where I'm standing right now, I'm literally five or six miles away from where Billy and Ruth Graham lived over in, in Montre.

And you know, Billy Graham had a close relationship with presidents of both parties. But if you compare him to his son, Franklin Graham, who's become just a.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:08:07

That's right.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:08:08

A right wing mouthpiece. And I think you're right. I think that's the reason that participation in organized religion is falling off. It's become so political and partisan and.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:08:17

Yeah, well, Mo, we, I know your listeners may not want to get all into religious. We can end it with this. But here's what I'd say that Billy Graham did that others aren't. And I wish the church today would do it.

Billy Graham kept the main thing, the main thing. And in Christianity, right, it's about the crucifixion and the saving grace of the God that we call our Christ.

That's the essential message of salvation. And that was all Billy Graham ever wanted you to know.

Because the moment you got off of that tenet, you got into places that you were losing the audience, so to speak. And he knew that when he approached politics, it didn't matter if you were Republican or Democrat. Billy Graham knew.

I'm going to pray for you and I'm going to make sure you understand the message of salvation that Christians believe in. I share this with pastors today.

If you can keep the church focused on the main thing, whatever your church is, whatever your religion is, focus it on the main thing. You have a very tight faith family there.

But the moment you bleed into politics and telling people how they should live their life and what's right or wrong and what party is right or wrong, you started to separate people in a way that was never the calling of your faith, whatever that faith might be.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:09:19

You know, a couple of years back you were on Bill Maher's show where you announced that you were leaving the Republican Party. And at the time you said that the two parties are not the solution. And I'm just wondering what you meant by that and whether you still believe it.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:09:32

I believe then, I believe today that the United States will be better with multiple parties. And the data proves that across western democracies, we are an outlier.

In the United States with having only two major parties, most major democracies are multi party democracy.

And what the data shows is voters have greater participation, greater satisfaction, there's greater policy outcomes, there's greater consensus, there's more diversity of representation. Multiple parties actually increase participation and satisfaction among voters.

The reason that we only have two parties is because the two parties write the rules in the United States and they don't want more parties, they don't want more competition.

And I think what often we get wrong when we think about the new party space is that somehow there's this magical center where everybody is actually a centrist and that's where a new party could emerge. I spent and have spent four or five, six years on this.

I helped launch the Forward Party with former Governor Christie, Todd Whitman on the right and Andrew Yang on the left. And, and what I learned in that process is it's not about centrism, it's actually about pluralism.

You know, we know as a fundamental tenet of the country, the United States has embraced pluralism, all types of different ideology. But I think within each of our own personal politics, most of us are pluralists.

And what I mean by that is take the left, right spectrum rather than just try to say, I'm at this point on the spectrum on every issue. I think most of us in our own politics are all.

And so for me, for instance, I'm for lower corporate taxes, but I'm for stricter regulation of firearms. Now one of those puts me on the left and one of those puts me on the right.

And if I were to try to sign up for a major party, they'd say, well, if you're a Republican, we want you on lower corporate taxes, but don't talk about firearm regulation. And Democrats would say, talk about firearm regulations but don't talk about lower corporate taxes.

And, and so what I believe when I made that statement to Bill Maher, I believe today most people want the liberation to simply believe what they believe in politics and not to have to subscribe to being in the same place on the left, right spectrum on every issue. Multiple parties would be a cure to that. But the barriers to entry are real. And frankly, the cost to launch a national party starts at $100 million.

And if there's a benefactor out there, you know, a Bloomberg type that's interested in a multi party democracy, this is different than running an independent race for office to build the infrastructure of a party starts at $100 million.

David B. Wheeler: 00:11:58

So what about an independent candidacy somewhere in Florida? Anything? Have you, have you thought about that?

Instead of doing, you tried to start the party and I think you guys did a terrific job, I mean, considering all the impediments out there. But what about Florida? What about Florida? Why don't you just run for something down there, my friend?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:12:18

un for governor of Florida in: 2026

I have, I considered at each of the last two cycles and made the right decision, likely to forego at each of the last two cycles. This cycle is very different.

You know, my, my politics and my personal life are in a different place today than they were four years ago or eight years ago. But also the politics in the state of Florida. You know, the world's been watching.

Florida's basically driving itself off a cliff under supermajority Republican control right now. We've become a home for the rich and the reckless. We have an affordability crisis, a crisis in our schools, a crisis of corruption in Tallahassee.

And remarkably, we have an open seat for the governorship in 26, which provides for an intriguing dynamic. The generic ballot is challenging in Florida.

Republicans have increased their strength and you know, two years ago DeSantis won reelection by 19 points. Now that was a bit of an outlier. We were used to two or three point races, but this past November was still strong Republican numbers.

I mean, it was a 13, 14 point win for Donald Trump and for, for Rick Scott's reelection. So it raises some questions. What does a coalition in Florida look like to bring us back from total Republican control?

minee in Florida could win in: 2026

But could an no party affiliate in Florida and NPA, could an NPA build a coalition that allies with strong Democrats and builds a coalition for the state of Florida that could topple Republican control? I'm actively looking at that and I Think Florida Democrats are doing a lot of soul searching as well.

But I can tell you going around the state and frankly around the country on this, the level of intensity and activism among Democrats is real right now.

People are angry and I think we could see a really disruptive election in next November, particularly at the national level with Democrats likely taking back Congress and getting some oversight control of the administration. But all of a sudden states like Florida could come into play as well for a strong Democratic or NPA aligned Democratic ticket for the governorship.

So we're actively looking at it.

David B. Wheeler: 00:14:33

That's terrific. I'm glad to hear that. And have you made any announcement on that front or is this going to be news to our listeners?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:14:40

It'll, it'll probably be news. I haven't hidden it, but I haven't been working the press on it either.

So I've done a lot of, a lot of Democratic meetings in Florida and sharing it when asked. So I think it's starting to get out there. But it's probably the first media I've done on it. So you can break that.

David B. Wheeler: 00:14:57

Okay, cool. Well, we will. We certainly will. So what, what's it take to get on the ballot there, David?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:15:02

So if you are an independent, it's not difficult to get on the ballot. You can run all the way through November.

You know, in starting the new party, I learned about all the barriers that the major parties put on independent candidates. Primary barrier in state of Florida is around campaign finance. If you run as a Republican or Democrat, you can essentially take unlimited money.

Now that money has to go through the party. But as an independent, I'm limited to raising $3,300 a person in hard money for the candidate and that's it. There is no pass through vehicle.

If I were to run as a Democrat, you can raise a 3,300, but you know, Joe Smith could write a $10 million check to the party for the campaign of David Jolly and it passes right through.

And that's how the major parties restrict kind of viable independent candidacies and even minor parties from nominating people in the state of Florida. And look, I also, I'm very sensitive to whether or not I just, look, I want us to win.

And when I say us, I mean the coalition of Floridians that are tired of super majority Republican malfeasance and irresponsible governing. I just want us to win. Now that means I may be the candidate, it might be somebody else. I just want us to win.

I think I'm in a strong position as a candidate, but I gladly support a stronger candidate should they emerge. The second piece of that is, what does that coalition and strategy look like?

Is it running as a Democrat but building the coalition of independents with you, or is it running as an independent and building the coalition of Democrats with you? It's really the same coalition, but it becomes a real strategic question.

Because in either scenario, for myself, as a former Republican, now independent, with a lot of free thinking in politics, the theory of the case is the same. The candidacy has to break through the brand of either today's Democratic party in Florida or of the independent movement. Right.

You really need a breakthrough moment where a majority of Floridians can see it and say, you know what? This is the coalition that I feel at home in, and I want to go in that direction.

The question of the vehicle or the vessel becomes one of data and strategy. Is it smart to lead this coalition as an independent or is it smart to lead it as a Democrat? I'm a natural ally of today's Democrats.

I fought alongside them the last six or eight years. And I think their fundamental convictions are right for the future of the state and the country.

So we've got to figure all that out by, really, June 1st of this year. I'd have to make that decision.

David B. Wheeler: 00:17:26

Well, I. I hope you run. I hope you run as an independent. We figure out how to work with Democrats down there.

You know, we have similar impediments here in North Carolina. I looked at running as an independent out here in western North Carolina, and I had to get signatures to even get on a state senate ballot.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:17:46

Right.

David B. Wheeler: 00:17:46

And that's tough. That's really tough. So my, my advice on winning in Florida is, is put together the lower your insurance rates party.

I ran, I also ran statewide for insurance commissioner. Got my ass kicked. But, man, North Carolina is close to emulating what's going on in Florida.

What would you do as governor to help folks with their insurance rates and get those down in rate?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:18:10

Well, you probably don't know this, David, but I actually authored national Catastrophic Plan when I was in Congress. And the idea at the national level and at the state level is to have a national catastrophic fund or a state catastrophic fund.

And ideally, you'd have both.

You'd have the national cat fund, backstopping state cap funds that essentially absorb and take off of private underwriters, the high natural disaster perils, the highest natural disaster peril. So hurricanes in the southeast, wildfires in the west, ice storms, flooding in the Carolinas, you name it.

The idea would Be fund it through either a doc tax on every real estate transaction, a stamp tax.

There's been some proposals that, you know, you could add a point or two to property tax bills, but basically fund a robust state catastrophic fund that absorbs the natural disaster perils, the natural disaster risk and high risk corridors, and allows insurance companies, private insurance companies, to simply underwrite the traditional risks of home ownership. But you've got your thumb on something we're experiencing in Florida, California, certainly Carolina.

Now, this is going to spread because as the incident rate of natural disasters rises, it pushes private insurers out. And so I talk about in Florida really three things they're all largely attached to. An affordability crisis is the umbrella.

But we have an insurance crisis that needs to get fixed because it's leading to an affordability crisis for homeownership, for rentals, and frankly, for just the cost of living. In the state of Florida, we got a crisis in our public schools.

We have chased a voucher school choice program, but it is not school choice if on one side you have well funded private schools and on the other side you have underfunded public schools. That's not a choice in the name of school choice. We've starved our public schools.

And I think Florida should have the best public school system in the entire world. And we need to reinvest in more schools and more communities with more teachers making more money.

And that contributes to what is also part of the affordability crisis, because families feel like they've got to go pay for private schooling now in the state of Florida. And then the third leg of the stool is we've got a corruption crisis.

Our campaign finance laws, I mentioned one of them already in terms of how they, how you can run candidates with unlimited money. But we essentially allow our elected leaders to have slush funds that corporate Florida pays into with very little oversight.

Our governor right now is still taking corporate checks into a political action committee that has complete control over, but he's not a candidate for anything. And the amount of money from going in from regulated industries, going to the regulators and the politicians is a corruption right now.

That you could make an argument it's a full circle has contributed to the insurance crisis and affordability crisis we have right now.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:20:57

the fairness doctrine back in: 1987

You tried to push through a bill that would ban members of Congress from directly soliciting campaign contribution. That's right. How do we get the corrupting influence of money out of our politics?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:21:48

We have the most corrupt campaign finance system in the modern world. I suppose there are countries that it's just pure graft where you can pay off people, but ours is really, really bad. And, you know, I listen.

I, broadly speaking, my political journey, one of my colleagues and at times nemesis in politics, Charlie Chris, most people know who he is, changed parties a few times. And he would used to say that I didn't leave the party, the party left me.

I don't one, I don't really believe that when he says it, but, but that's also not my theory. And in my political journey, I test a different theory, which is I've changed my mind. And is it okay to change your mind in politics?

And that's on a lot of issues that's on, on the fundamentals of Roe v. Roe v. Wade, for instance. I, growing up pro life was mistaken to think that pro life meant you had to be anti Roe.

And it took serving and representing and really working on the issues to realize in my personal political belief, I think Roe v. Wade's the exact right framework and we need to bring it back on guns.

That's another perfect example where I grew up thinking if you're a Republican, you've got to be for, you know, unlimited Second Amendment rights, there should be no regulation. But I quickly realized, no, there has to be.

And the Second Amendment isn't outside the reach of regulation and we need more regulation around firearms. But on the issue of money, that's another great example.

I would have made the argument as a young Republican getting trained up in, call it Republican school, that money is speech and speech should be unlimited and there shouldn't be any restriction. Now I'm for public financing and campaigns, and I think we should prohibit just about every contribution that's made today to politicians.

Now, you're right about the courts, Mo. The courts have recognized that most restrictions don't pass constitutional muster under this current judiciary.

So what I did in Congress is I tried to work within the law and the Constitution as it's seen to see where could we put some real handcuffs on the most corrupting influence. And so I introduced a bill called the STOP Act. It was only two pages and we, we murder boarded it for months to make sure we had it really tight.

And all it, all it would do is prohibit a city member of Congress from directly soliciting a campaign contract. And it comes at the issue two ways, obviously. The first is the corrupt corruption angle.

Get members of Congress out of being the telemarketers and ask them for money. But the second is time. Members of Congress on all sides of the aisle spend 60 to 70% of their time raising money, not legislating.

So my idea was if we prohibit them from doing the direct ask, from having to work the phones all day and remove fundraising from their personal activities, maybe we'll get a full time Congress in a full time world because we don't have it right now. And a couple carve outs were your campaign could still raise money, right?

There wasn't really a good way to say a campaign couldn't raise money and still pass constitutional mustard. So your campaign finance chair could still raise money. Your staff could, but it removed the member from the process and from the ask.

And then the second, the rule didn't apply to a challenger because my argument was if you're a challenger, the opportunity costs of going out and raising money is a private opportunity.

If I'm a teacher who's also the more time I spend running for Congress is taking away my time to teach or practice law or construction, whatever I'm doing. But that's not, I guess with teachers it's a public job, but you're not holding the public trust like a political office.

But once you get elected now you hold the public trust. And if you're not doing your job, it's a violation of that public trust if you're spending more time raising money. So it didn't apply to challengers.

We got about 10, 12 co sponsors and we got some 60 minutes coverage on it. What we knew all the time was it would require another scandal before people will realize campaign finance is really an issue I want to work on.

We've got a long ways to go on campaign finance. But I promise you what we all feel is absolutely true. There's a corruptive influence to money in politics.

And unfortunately the current certainly in Florida, current Republican Party. And I think you could take some Hits on Democrats across the country on this as well.

They're just fine with the system how it is because they benefit from it. But at some point we've got to stand up and disrupt it and break it up.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:25:54

Yeah, when I ran in: 2020

And it really deters me from wanting to get back in.

But if you get elected, particularly on the House side, by the time you get sworn in in January, you're just 22 months away from facing the voters again. And you've got to raise 100 to $200,000 a month to keep your job. And that's right to me, you know, raising that kind of money is a job.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:26:26

So it is a job. You're, it's a full time telemarketing job.

And you know the, the sad part of this, what might actually cure it is also going to make it worse, which is because of the amount of unlimited outside money. Many of these seats, particularly these swing seats, have become commodities for special interest groups with unlimited outside money.

So take your race, Mo. If it was a truly, it maybe was, I don't know the RD makeup of it.

But if it was a true swing swing seat, the national special interest groups would come in with unlimited money and would outspend you even as the candidate, 10 to 1, 20 to 1. A good example when I ran this was 10 plus years ago. There was about $20 million spent in 10 weeks.

The two candidates only raised three or four of that. So another, so 16 million or so was outside money that we didn't control that defined both of our candidacies.

And they just wanted a win for their side of the aisle.

So what might cure the demands you went through is the fact that the outside special interest groups have the power to outspend you even on your side. Even the ones supporting you can outspend you 10 to 1. The ones opposing you can outspend you 10 to 1.

And eventually the candidate doesn't matter in a campaign system like that. The seat just becomes a commodity of special interests in the national party.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:27:42

We talked about fixing Congress. Let's talk about the Congress that we've got recently. You said in the interview it's a quote.

I don't think Republicans in Congress know what they're doing right now. And you referred to it as a constitutional crisis. And you said Congress is, I think your term. You said they were meaningless.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:28:00

I believe I don't get it what's.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:28:02

The point in having Congress if there's going to be a rubber stamp for the administration?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:28:05

Yeah, Congress has collapsed. Look, I, I think, and I do believe we're in a constitutional crisis because administration is acting with lawlessness and that underlies everything.

Democrats are shooting a lot of darts at the board trying to figure out, are we going to attack doge, are we going to attack the cuts to veterans and usaid, are we going to attack Social Security, Medicare cuts? What underlies all this, and it's not too sexy, unfortunately it should be, is a level of lawlessness.

What Donald Trump is doing, he doesn't have the constitutional authority to do.

But it only matters if Congress steps up and provides the accountability, because constitutionally, the two checks on a lawless president or the courts, which takes time, there's a latency to it. And we sometimes see them work and sometimes we don't.

But the emergency firefighters in the Constitution or the Congress who can rush into the fire with accountability mechanism, putting handcuffs on a president's ability to act, using statutes like the Impoundment act to say you have to spend the money that we're providing, holding congressional hearings or even holding impeachment hearings.

We are in a constitutional crisis not just because Donald Trump is acting lawlessly, but because the Republican con has collapsed and doesn't care that he's acting lawlessly. And I think that's an area just. We're doing unprecedented damage right now to the institution of the Congress, but also to the Constitution itself.

And perhaps it takes the crisis arriving at the doorstep of every American home to realize that this, this regime of Donald Trump and Republicans on the Hill is really tearing at the fabric of who we are as a country and breaking us down. I think the only thing that Donald Trump, the only tool that could get him out of the mess he's creating is a white hot economy next summer.

If he hasn't built a lazing economy by next summer, Republicans are heading to the ultimate accountability, which are voters who's going to, who are going to show up and throw a lot of Republicans out of office.

David B. Wheeler: 00:29:58

Now, there's always hope.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:29:59

Yeah, right.

David B. Wheeler: 00:30:00

So, so Representative Jolly, you, you were in Congress for what, three terms?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:30:05

No, just two. Two.

David B. Wheeler: 00:30:06

All right.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:30:07

I ended up with about four districts. And in three years, and the last, the last district, that was all she wrote, I became the most vulnerable member of Congress.

David B. Wheeler: 00:30:15

Well, it should have been three. So what's the weirdest conversation you ever had on, on the floor and with whom?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:30:23

Oh, that's a good one. You know, you end up getting to know people on a personal level and, and you make some good friends.

I'll tell you today, one of my great friends in politics is Mark Sanford, and people know him for controversy and the love gov. And maybe you like his politics or you hate his politics.

But, but when you get to know somebody for their failings and their frailty and you realize, you know, their willingness to account for their own failings, you get to see people in a way perhaps you don't see them on tv. At the same time, you know, there's some real clowns that serve in Congress. There's a bell curve to it. And I, I think I had a few dispiriting ones.

And I'm just going to take some targets, take some shots at, at Republicans right now. You know, we, I, I was serving at a time Obama was in, he was on his way out.

And we were attacking Obama for the pen and the phone comment and for some things that we said. He didn't have the executive authority to do it. Congress had to do it. Particularly take immigration reform.

He doesn't have the authority to use his pen and his phone on immigration. We have that power as a Congress. Well, Republicans would end the story there. And I would always say, okay, well, then it's our authorities.

Now what are we doing to fix it?

And I remember one night saying to a member of leadership, the majority whip at the time, I said, tell me when we're going to put immigration reform on the House floor and I'll support you for leader. And he looked at me and he said, do you know what the American people would do to us if we actually voted on immigration reform?

And it was the moment when I realized, the fix is in. We're not doing any of this. There was also, I took an approach to sponsoring legislation before it was perfected.

What I mean by that is if it was a good idea on the left or the right, even as a Republican, I'd put my name on it to say, yeah, let's move this forward. Let's get this into committee. Let's get it on the floor and have the debate.

So one of those examples was the estate tax repeal, the death tax, Republicans like to call it. And I forget how much money that particular repeal at the time added to the debt.

And so my presumption was, we're going to figure this out, and before we vote on it, we'll figure out how to pay for it. And so they scheduled it for a vote on the House floor. And I went up to Paul Ryan, and he was the chair, Ways and Means at the time.

And I said, hey, Paul, I know we scheduled this vote. Have we figured out how we're going to pay for it? And he looked at me and he said, oh, we don't pay for tax cuts.

And it was another one of those moments. I thought, oh, I get it, I get it. So, you know, those are the moments where you realize, wow, this. There is a level of irresponsibility.

Other stuff, I'll tell you, always surprised me. Votes after dinner. There were certainly a number of people who enjoyed their alcohol at dinner.

So you could see some spirited arguments, or you could see some people taking advantage and getting some deals done they couldn't get done when the other member was sober. Maybe saw a couple come to fisticuffs a couple times. But, you know, it. The House is like a playground. I like to refer to it.

It's like a playground, and it can be messy. I fundamentally believe in the Congress. I grew up working there. I didn't think I would ever serve, but I did.

But I liken it to any baseball fans out there. Serving in Congress was like. Was like baseball. I woke up every morning, it felt like spring training and your team could make the series.

I went to bed every night, it was August and we were 20 games back, but. But I woke up again the next morning thinking it was spring training and we could make the series.

It's that type of carousel in Congress when you serve.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:33:46

Hey, David. You know, back years ago, I was the head of Foreign Affairs, Defense and Trade at Congressional Research Service.

And I had a guy that worked for me that Pat Tao, who had been a reporter for CQ Roll Call for years.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:33:57

Sure, sure.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:33:58

And occasionally he and I would go over and sit in the gallery. And I remember one time we're sitting there as a vote taking place, and he said the thing to him that really had degraded Congress were cell phones.

And that's right. He said, watch as people would vote.

He said, you know, they'd go up and vote, then they'd sit down, you could see they're tweeting and, you know, doing all their social media stuff.

And he said, in the old days, you know, a member would go up and vote, then they'd walk over and talk to somebody else, and then a group would form and you'd have conversations. He said, watch them. Now every just goes to their own corner and gets on their phone.

And he said, they just don't have the relationships like they did back in the old days. I don't know how we get back.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:34:33

I agree with you. And there are a number of things, I think, that broke down in parallel, you know, when you were there. There also is committees actually did work.

We had conference committees. When legislation differed, appropriations and budgeting stayed on an annual schedule.

And what happened over the years is as members started to lose their responsibilities, leadership began to take a greater control. And ultimately committees mean very little when it comes to consequential legislation.

The speaker's office essentially writes it and pushes it down on the committees. And then you go to the floor, there's never really much debate. And this is on the left and the right.

I mean, I think there were fewer open amendment processes under Nancy Pelosi than any other speaker. But leadership really shuts down any real debate.

And so a lot of those members on their phones show up with a card that says, these are the next eight votes. And this is the way our side of the aisle is voting. And it's just a matter of killing time in between votes because there's no suspense to it.

I, I just, you know, I remember a couple speeches I would give on the House floor. One of them that got picked up was me screaming about a, I think it was an appropriations package.

And I remember screaming, we had the votes to pass this last night. If we drop the R's and the D's next to our name, we actually had the vote. And then the parties got involved.

There also was one, one particularly heartbreaking moment. Many people remember the shooting at the Pulse nightclub.

And the one gun issue that emerged from there was the shooter was on the no fly list, but was still able to purchase a high capacity firearm. And so naturally, most Americans would say, if you're on the no fly list, you shouldn't be able to buy a gun.

And the right threw up all these issues about due process, about the no fly list. And they were right. Due process on the no fly list, there's insufficient due process.

So they would say, you can't just prohibit somebody from buying a gun. And that was it. That was the end of the debate.

And I went to the well, and I said, well, why don't we just add due process to the purchase of the gun then and put the burden on the government.

You can have a classified or controlled hearing in front of a judge, but if the, if the government is going to prohibit you from buying a weapon, then they should have to satisfy the burden of proof in front of a judge as to why we can add due process to this. And the moment I did that. It was, you know, Republicans were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't talk about that. We're not. That's not.

It's not how we solve this. We solve this by shutting it down. And. And I think it.

There's just such a lack of critical thinking in Congress right now, and you could argue in our body politics across the country, we've lost the ability to embrace critical thinking.

But unfortunately, it has real consequences for the world's most powerful legislative bodies if it legislates out of ignorance and leads us to the result we see today.

David B. Wheeler: 00:37:15

Well, you're a truth teller, David, and you're very articulate as well. If there was one unfiltered truth you could tell, you know, every citizen and every voter in Florida, what would that be?

I mean, and let's, you know, get down into your soul here so folks can get to know you a little bit better. What's that one unfiltered truth?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:37:34

Look, I think all of our politics today, I don't know that this is profound, but is so hamstrung by our personal identification with party. And George Washington warned us about it. George Washington warned us about this. And we approach politics today through our party identity.

And I don't think we realize how much it restricts our own ability to think and to participate effectively in our democracy.

We almost restrict our own franchise by thinking my job is to be a loyal Democrat or a loyal Republican, and I think it's true in the independent space as well, to immediately be suspicious of Republicans and Democrats. That's equally shortsighted. You know, if I were to run for office, I think there's. There's smart ideas on both sides of the aisle. I.

I have been public in saying that I think today's Republican Party is going in the wrong direction. But there are some Republican ideas in Tallahassee today that are good ones.

There's a leading Republican fighting for a rural Renaissance to invest $200 million in rural communities that continue to lose populations.

The investments would go into access to healthcare and education and improved infrastructure so that people across the state could have opportunities like we see in only certain wealthy pockets. I think that's a fantastic idea. My guess is most Democrats will reflexively oppose it because it's introduced by a leading Republican.

And I think all of us have to be careful about reaching first for our party identity or because we're an independent, being suspicious of the parties. If we can drop what we see as some type of personal identity or affiliation of our personal politics with a Major party.

I actually think most of us want the same things. We want a government that works for as many people as possible, an economy that grows and empowers the most number of people possible.

Those are the basics. A government that works in an economy that grows.

The moment we start relying strictly on one party or the other to provide that for us, I think we've lost the plot.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:39:30

You know, it seems like in today's environment that DEI has become code for the N word. I was looking at something you wrote not, not too many years back where you're talking about celebrating diversity.

And you said celebrating diversity is about, quote, communal strength that emerges from valuing everyone's individual story, their personal belief system, recognizing their truth with equity. That.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:39:52

That's right.

Col. Moe Davis: 00:39:53

That doesn't sound very Republican.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:39:57

You know, it's also something I don't think Republicans should be afra of. Listen, I went to Emory University and as I mentioned, a rural preacher's kid never really exposed to much diversity.

And my first week there, they tried to cram it down my throat and I rejected it because I just thought it was. Honestly I just had never experienced it. Right. And I thought, I grew up thinking we all have the same opportunities.

We all, you know, we're all born who we are. Why do we make an issue of our differences and why are we celebrating differences? We should just focus on individual opportunity.

I think from a policy perspective, it's important to recognize that equality of opportunity requires changes in law because we're not all born with the same opportunity. We're simply not. And Republicans are short sighted when they say everyone's born with the same opportunity. So we don't need any laws. That's not true.

Depending on what zip code you're in, your opportunities are very, very varied.

So one, I think we have to recognize that, that from a socioeconomic and demographic perspective, we, as a result of willfulness or willful negligence, millions of Americans today, through their party participation, are okay with a permanent underclass. And I think that's wrong. I think that's wrong. And so I think from a policy perspective, it is important that we recognize diversity.

But I also think from a cultural perspective, we have the opportunity to really grow the country and strengthen the country.

I want my children to as many cultural differences, as many different fates as possible to books that push their boundaries, challenge their religious beliefs and challenge their intellect. And at home we can orient our, our family around the value set that's right for our family.

But I want them to be exposed as much as possible so that when they have the opportunity to choose what's right for them, they can do that and they can celebrate it themselves. I'm not afraid of dei. I think the attack on DEI is understandable because perhaps you could argue it's been imbalanced in certain places.

But the worst thing that could happen from it, from the perspective of attacking DEI is to actually also attack diversity.

David B. Wheeler: 00:42:05

Well, that's a nice way to end this conversation. Representative Jolly, we really appreciate your time and insights and service to our country. You're a terrific guy.

I'm a big fan of yours and enjoyed getting to know you a little bit better today. For our listeners.

Rep. David Jolly: 00:42:21

I appreciate it.

David B. Wheeler: 00:42:22

Yeah, for our listeners. Where can they learn more about you? David?

Rep. David Jolly: 00:42:26

You know, look, I've got a website, davidjolly.com that has a mailbox. You could, you could certainly drop me a note. But I'm largely off socials. I jumped that shark a year or two ago.

But to get in touch with me, just get onto davidjali.com and there's a mailbox there.

David B. Wheeler: 00:42:41

Okay, cool. And Moe, why don't we do another plug for your book?

Col. Moe Davis: 00:42:44

Yeah, well, thanks. The book's called Sovereign Oak. It's a historical novel.

Interestingly, today in the local paper there's a story about, you know, the hurricane washed out the railroad and it's going to be rebuilt.

But it notes in the article, in the article that the railroad was built by African Americans that were largely arrested and convicted on bogus crimes to create a labor pool to build the railroad. So that's one part of the of the book is based on that story. Again, 100% of the proceeds are going to hurricane relief.

And you can find Sovereign Oak on Amazon.com Terrific to our listeners.

David B. Wheeler: 00:43:17

If this conversation made you think, if it gave you a new perspective, share it. Please subscribe, leave a review and join us next Time for another deep dive. This has been Muck you.

I'm David Wheeler and thanks to my friend Colonel Moe Davis for co hosting today. Please stay informed, stay engaged, take a moment to look at the bigger picture. See you next time.

Narrator: 00:43:35

This has been Muck you co hosted by Colonel Moe Davis in Asheville, North Carolina and David Wheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina. Thanks to our friend and guest today, Representative David Jolly.

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