Muckin' Around with Mark McKinnon: From Bush to Biden and Back Again

David B. Wheeler: 00:00:06

It's Muck U, the American Muck breakers podcast where we sling mud at the high and mighty.

I'm David Wheeler, the clown who kicked off this circus, joined by my co founder and co host, Colonel Mo Davis, a guy so tough he penned Sovereign Oak, a book you can snag on Amazon if you're into excellent literature. With an introduction of our special guest today. Take it away, Mo.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:00:31

Thanks, David, and good to be back with everyone. And if you're here in western North Carolina, we're enjoying some really nice spring weather. So yeah, we've got another great guest today.

s successful campaign back in: 2000

One of my favorite things he did was I was a big fan of the, the show the Circus that particularly with when Mark was on with John Heilman and Alex Wagner was a show kind of behind the scenes of, of politics, the good and the bad.

He was an advisor on the HBO show HBO show the Newsroom on House of Cards, which I remember watching House of Cards thinking a president can't be this corrupt. And then all of a sudden we've got one that kind of made Kevin Spacey look tame.

He's a co founder of no Labels, an organization, you know, trying to return some common sense to politics and get the, the money and the, and the parties kind of out of the way and they're kind of a co sponsor for the Problem Solver Caucus in Congress which it's seems like our current Congress is more of a problem creators and solvers and he's a regular writer on Vanity Fair. So Mark, we really, really appreciate you taking time to be with us today.

Mark McKinnon: 00:02:04

Always glad to join fellow prisoners of hope.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:02:08

Hey listen, I got to start by asking My dad was 100 disabled veteran of World War II and he, he was a big LBJ fan.

So when I was growing up in the closet, when you came in our house or three or four LBJ Stetson hats sitting on the rack there, my dad didn't leave the house without one. And when I think of, you know, Stephen Jobs had the black turtleneck and Paul Simon had the bow ties and I think of you, it's the Stetson hats.

How did that come about?

Mark McKinnon: 00:02:40

Well, Mo, thanks your shout out ties right back to how the how the hat started. I say it's an affectation admittedly, but it's just not a recent one.

I've always worn hats and there's not a picture of me Growing up that I don't have a hat on. So I've always been the cat in the hat. But my dad also had. This is the open road Stetson.

It's called the President's hat because of LBJ and other presidents, but most prominently, LBJ wore this hat. It's kind of the gentleman's western hat. And my dad was a rancher for a while, and he had one in his closet.

And, you know, little boys, you know, wander into Dad's closets, and there's all kinds of cool stuff in there, and you rummage around. But the coolest thing by far to me was that Stetson on the upper shelf. And I used to, you know, ogle it, and.

And I couldn't wait until I was old enough to get my own.

David B. Wheeler: 00:03:33

And.

Mark McKinnon: 00:03:33

And finally I did. And what I love about it is that it's, you know, it's. It's. It's. It goes so far back, and yet it's had this huge renaissance now. Now it's.

It's, you know, all the Brooklyn hipsters wearing them, and so we're making hats great again.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:03:50

All right. Hey, listen, I gotta ask.

n for the George Bush back in: 2000

I'm interested because, you know, we've gone from Bush and what was known as compassionate conservatism to Trump and what can be termed cruelty and chaos. So what was it like at the reunion? And how did we get from those days to where we are now?

Mark McKinnon: 00:04:27

Yeah, it's. It's incredible. It was. It was really bittersweet. I mean, sweet, because, you know, I mean, the turnout was incredible.

Almost every single person from that campaign showed up. And so it was a great reunion. And it was also.

We got to have the celebration that we never had, because, remember, there was a recount, so we weren't ever all together. We got to, like, jump up and high five each other, you know, spread out over a couple of months.

And everybody was scattered across the country in Florida and Washington, so we never got that celebratory moment. So this served to be that time when we all got to kind of give a big hug and a high five. But it was bitter because, you know, we.

It was a celebration of all we created, but it was, you know, bitter in the sense of all that we've lost since then. And as you pointed out, the. You Know what attracted me to George W.

Bush as a former Democrat who'd worked for Ann Richards, was this idea of compassionate conservatism. And, and there is zero compassion in the current administration. Also, you could argue not a lot of conservatism either. I mean, it's those.

I was a radical free trader. That's part of why I joined the Republican Party too, and standing up to authoritarian governments.

And just look at all that Trump is doing now, dismantling so much of what George Bush and other, other office holders had built. Things like the PEPFAR program which saved 26 million lives around the world. It's really disheartening.

By the way I recall I meant to put this in the article and I forgot, but the whole theme of our campaign, most of the ads, the tagline was we are running to restore honor and dignity to the White House. I think about that idea now, the notion of honor and dignity.

And you know, anytime you're around Bushworld, you just hear words like honor, decency, character, compassion. And there's just none of that now. And it's so, it's, it's, it's really, it's, it's very sad to see what's happening for all the country.

But you know, what's happened to the Republican Party? I mean, John McCain or George Bush couldn't get elected in a primary now.

And I mentioned those names around, know, maga, Trump people and they just sneer at me, you know, as if they were the worst people ever on the planet. And they, you know, whatever you think about their politics, John McCain and George Bush were incredible.

Are, are and were incredible human beings and patriots.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:07:14

Yeah, it is just mind boggling the, the world that we're living in right now.

We're, I had a op ed in our local Asheville paper over the weekend talking about, you know, signal gate, you know, having all these senior officials in the Trump administration exchanging, you know, attack plans, unfortunately, I guess, you know, sharing it with the journalists so that we all found out about it. But no accountability, no standards.

You know, we, we hold 18 year old recruits that are showing up in Texas for basic training to a higher standard then we hold the Commander in Chief and the Secretary of Defense. And that's just the hard to figure how we got here.

Mark McKinnon: 00:07:56

Well, the hypocrisy is appalling. I mean, can you imagine if that had been somebody in the Biden administration, what Republicans would have done?

I mean, it's just, you know, and as you said, it's the sort of infraction that, you know, not only shouldn't be happening at the highest government levels, it shouldn't be happening anywhere at any time. And if you were a, you know, Marine recruitment doing that sort of thing, you'd be busted out on your ass in 24 hours, right?

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:08:24

Yeah, but apparently if you're at the top of the pyramid, remember, in the old days, the buck stops here, is always at the top, and now it's past the buck and no one's ever responsible.

Mark McKinnon: 00:08:36

You know, part of the, part of the issue I think, guys, is that there's a culture in Trump world that I've observed.

And this is again, you know, we were Bush, team Bush was, you know, we were, we thought of ourselves as rule makers and these guys think of themselves as rule breakers. And you have to kind of go back to the 16 campaign.

And if you, if you work in politics, Wheeler, you know, this, the, if you really want to, you know, make your stripes, you go work on a presidential campaign. And if you're really lucky, you, you get the brass ring and that, that's a career maker for you, if that happens.

l campaign ultimately. And in: 2016

And if you ended up with Donald Trump, that was your 18th interview, you'd already been turned down 17 times because nobody thought Donald Trump was going to win, including Donald Trump, by the way. So you went to Bush, you went to Rubio. I mean, there was, you know, it was a pretty all star cast of legitimate candidates.

And so you can imagine the caliber of people who got turned down 18 times and then got hired.

Now, admittedly, he's got a, you know, a different, a little more experienced and tested crew this time around, but it's still the, the code of conduct in Trump world is to, you know, who can be the most outrageous, who can feed the outrage machine, who can break more stuff. So, you know, the, again, the incentives are just so upside down.

If you work for Reagan or Obama or, you know, any other president, you, you got points or credits for doing the right thing for, you know, building something.

And in this administration, you get points for being, you know, Laura Loomer, you know, you get points for just being the most outrageous, the most, you know, rule breaking. So you kind of play that out and you get to a point where, you know, the rule breaking is law breaking.

You know, they're, they're breaking laws and they're Breaking norms. And it's just, it's just an incredible race to the very bottom. You know, they're, they're, they're digging holes as deep as they can.

And, and so I, I just think that that's ultimately got a really bad ending. That's, that's, you know, manifesting itself in the sort of behaviors that we've seen over the last couple of weeks.

David B. Wheeler: 00:11:20

Right. And. And Mark, you contrast with that with you jumping off your one of your idols campaigns because you didn't want to run against Obama.

Mark McKinnon: 00:11:32

Yeah.

David B. Wheeler: 00:11:33

Can you imagine in this environment, anybody doing that ever?

Mark McKinnon: 00:11:37

Oh, no. I mean, I would have been accused of being such a wimp. So. So soft, so woke.

David B. Wheeler: 00:11:43

Right.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:11:43

Yeah.

Mark McKinnon: 00:11:44

But.

But I mean, the idea was, you know, that I had worked for McCain, I loved him, and, but we, I made this agreement with him that I said, you know, listen, if you win the primary and Obama wins the primary, I'd met Obama, I liked him, I disagreed with his politics, but I thought his candidacy would be good for the country.

And I just know how presidential campaigns go, and I, I knew that if they both won that I'd be the tip of the spear attacking Obama, and I wouldn't be a good attack dog. I'd have a soft trigger finger. And I said, McCain, if this happens, then I should probably step out. And he just, he said, yeah, right, McCain.

And I mean, this is early: 2017

And knowing that he'd do that, I wrote a memo to the senior staff sort of outlying the agreement, which I knew would hold my feet to the fire, too, because I knew it'd be hard to walk away after, you know, campaigns of blood, sweat, and tears and band of brothers and sisters. So, sure enough, it was really hard for me to do that, but I felt like I needed to honor the pledge.

And sure enough, McCain had forgotten, and I held up the memo, and he just did the usual, ah, God damn it, McKinnon. But he gave me. He gave me a big hug and he said, man, it'd be totally unmacke to not keep your. Your word and your honor and your pledge.

So, you know, thanks for helping me get here, and God bless you. So, you know, that was just. But such a different world.

David B. Wheeler: 00:13:09

announcement in Iowa in early: 2007

Mark McKinnon: 00:13:16

Exactly right.

David B. Wheeler: 00:13:17

Never let you write that letter, but.

Mark McKinnon: 00:13:20

That's right. Good work.

David B. Wheeler: 00:13:22

So listen, Mark, that statement you made then. And that was really my first kind of when you popped up on my radar. It just says so much about you and about the integrity that you walk.

You know, you walk the walk and talk to talk every day. And I'm just interested in, you know, where does that come from for you? I mean, obviously, get politics is a game of insights. It's also luck.

There's a lot and loyalty and a little bit of smarts, you know, where, where did all that political acumen and, and knowledge come from, Mark?

Mark McKinnon: 00:14:06

Well, as LBJ said, you're pissing on my leg, but it's warm and it feels good. Before I try and answer that, and thank you for those compliments. But just one other sidebar about that McCain thing. Just to talk about class acts.

I got a note from Obama after that happened, back in the days when he could still text or email, I guess he emailed me and he said, hey, McKinnon, you know, this is right after that, what was announced. He said, mckinnon, I can't believe you're doing this, you know, such an honorable thing to do.

But he said, and this was very insightful of him because it was true. He said, but listen, I know you're. You're walking away from a lot of money. And I was.

And he said, so listen, if you change your mind, I'll totally understand. And, you know, no harm done. And I just thought that was. Wow, you know, that said a whole lot about Obama. Can I tell you another quick. Obama.

David B. Wheeler: 00:15:14

Yes, yes, yes, please.

Mark McKinnon: 00:15:15

Just, just because, I mean this, you're talking about, you know, the character of people, right?

And, and really the core of this is that over time, I discovered that, you know, if you have a checklist of 7 out of 10 things you want to agree with somebody on and that should be your candidate, that doesn't always work out because they're, you know, sometimes they're not just good people. They, they may have, you know, agree with you on the, on a bunch of stuff, but they just, they don't have that fundamental character thing.

So that's what became really important to me.

My daughter, when she was about 20 years old, had a couple of, like, a series of really tragic things happen to her boyfriend was killed in a boating accident.

Then her best friend, a roommate, was killed in a car wreck, which was really a tough deal, you know, would be for anybody at 20 years old when you have the world ahead of you.

But I, I know David Axelrod really well, and he and I are just good friends and we share A lot of personal stories, and he's told me stories about, you know, struggles with his family. And I. Same with me. So I shared that with Axelrod. And then this.

this happened to be in, like,: 2007

And I heard about, you know, what you've been going through.

I just wanted to tell you, when I was about your age, I lost my best friend and my father within just, you know, a couple of weeks or a couple of months of each other. And I thought the world was going to end. And I'm sure that's how you feel. And I'm just here to tell you it's not. You're going to make it.

So that's all you had to tell me about the Obamas?

David B. Wheeler: 00:17:02

rience, mark, was in February: 2007

And then he came up to Cedar Rapids in Waterloo. And I was a lead guy for Waterloo. And it had snowed the day before.

They cleared the snow from the school parking lot, but the snow was piled up on the sides of the road, which screwed up parking. So people literally parked their cars up on these snow banks. And so we. George Cotto was with us.

Mark McKinnon: 00:17:33

I don't know. George.

David B. Wheeler: 00:17:35

George, yeah. Yeah. George was the lead guy on the bus and kept calling me, Wheeler, where are you? We can't get up the bus. Can't get up there.

And so I thought, oh, I'm. I'm screwed. And. Because, you know, candidates. And then.

So I bounded up on the bus after I ran down to the bottom of the parking lot to find them, and I. I was just distraught. I'm like, holy shit.

Mark McKinnon: 00:17:59

This is.

David B. Wheeler: 00:17:59

You know, David Jepsen was on the bus. So. Des Moines Register reporter, he's gonna.

Mark McKinnon: 00:18:05

He's.

David B. Wheeler: 00:18:06

His headline's gonna be, can't even get the bus to the door. How. You know, how can we get him to the White House?

Mark McKinnon: 00:18:11

End of Wheeler's career.

David B. Wheeler: 00:18:12

Yeah, exactly.

Mark McKinnon: 00:18:13

Literally.

David B. Wheeler: 00:18:14

I mean, it was like flash before my eyes. And it wasn't really about me. It was about, you know, the campaign. And. And. And I bounded up, and he was right there, and he said. He.

He looked at me, and he could tell I was a little distressed. He kind of looked around the bus he could see that people were a little pissed, and he said, listen.

Wow, you packed him in here, Wheeler, this is fantastic. Grab Michelle's arm. Let's go scooting across the ice. And. And in that moment, I've told this story on the.

On the pod before, but in that moment, it just deflated everything, and then nobody could come after me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I mean, can you imagine that?

Imagine what it would have happened if it would have been another candidate on the ice after this event.

Mark McKinnon: 00:18:54

But, yeah, you know, you. You'd been fired for having bad sound system.

David B. Wheeler: 00:18:57

Yeah. And then we rewarded him. Later on, I. I was. Had.

Let the food service company know that, you know, Obama was coming, and they flew in their chef from Philadelphia. And Obama, I. This. I swear to God, this is a true story. He said.

I said, after the event was over, I said, we got to put you in a hold for a little bit, because the same thing on the way out, we can't get the bus up here. We're going to let the lot clear out a little bit. He says, oh, fine, great. I said, you want something to eat? And he said, well, I'd. David.

And he looked straight in my eyes. I'd really like some pasta. And if he had some manicotti. Not manicotti, but a different kind of pasta. So I. I said, okay, we'll get it.

And I figured we just call it out to a restaurant. Well, the chef was Italian. Philadelphia brought his spices, brought us his pasta, and we. We served up Michelle and Barack.

And he turned to me, he says, wheeler, I was just kidding.

Mark McKinnon: 00:19:57

That's amazing. That's a.

David B. Wheeler: 00:20:00

Every time I would see him after that, he said, hey, Mr. Pasta, can I get some macho and pasta, man? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it was. It's just a different time.

Mark McKinnon: 00:20:11

Yeah. Like I said, I, I, you know, I'm. I've been. I'm lucky and grateful and, you know, just.

I've always kind of stumbled into stuff, mostly by accident and. But like I said, for. For reasons I don't, you know, part. A big part of just how I was raised, it just.

Ultimately, I came to believe that character counts and really matters. And I get the other thing. I'll just say that is probably more of a flaw in life, but it's a flaw I'll gladly accept in terms of the reverse.

I sort of have an extra empathy chromosome. I really feel people's pain, you know, I mean, put me in a room and I'll just.

The first thing I'll think of is you know, the waiter in the back, you know, who's having to serve everybody and it's just, or, you know, I'm in a hotel, I think about the, you know, the maid service person who's out eating a sandwich in the hallway or, you know, it's just, it's just a place that I always go to naturally.

And it's something, by the way, that strikes me about our current commander in chief that not only does he not have an excess, and I don't think he has an empathy chromosome at all. You know, I think if he saw a kid hit by a car, he'd start waxing on about what kind of car it was, so, or how it.

David B. Wheeler: 00:21:26

Was a kid's fault.

Mark McKinnon: 00:21:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.

Anyway, and I, I think that there's lots of interesting kind of studies and, you know, thoughts about empathy and, you know, but I just think that ultimately, if we're not thinking a little bit about, you know, people in our community who are, you know, the whole idea is to serve others. I mean, that's what McCain was all about, to serve a cause greater than yourself.

So that, that's kind of a bottom line on where, you know, I think, but you know, we're getting a point now where Republicans have run against government for so long and now it's just, they're on the crazy train and they're just like, now they've caught the car, but it's like, you know, Colonel was talking about FEMA and they're just eliminating all these things that actually do stuff.

And I think, you know, it's going to be a big wake up call for a lot of people who, you know, go to national parks now and the toilets aren't clean, you know, just because they, they thought it was, you know, that we don't need that stuff.

David B. Wheeler: 00:22:30

Yeah. And I, I, I'm up in western North Carolina, not today, but normally.

And you know, we got hit by Helene very hard in, in my small town and there was a guy out last week surveying for debris removal. They're going to come into the backyards of folks and actually remove stumps and trees and stuff.

Well, that money, I think has just dried up and these are all Trumpers out here. So it'll be really interesting to see what my neighbors say about Trump when their, their stumps don't get removed.

But yeah, so, so let's move on to happier times now back in history. But tell us, tell us one of your favorite Ann Richards story. What, what an amazing human being she was.

Mark McKinnon: 00:23:14

Wow. Well, I Mean, she was, I mean, you think about glass ceilings and you know how tough politics is and it's always been tough.

I mean, it was never easy. It's, it's just a, it's just a different kind of tough now.

But it was tough then and for, for Ann Richards to, to break that glass ceiling in Texas and be elected. There'd been one other governor in Texas, but she wasn't elected.

She was just the wife of a former governor that he, he, he just, you know, corruptly got into power. So to, to be a Democrat and to be a woman and to win in Texas, you know, boy, you got to be tough as nails.

And she, she was tough and she was such a character, you know, she was just, she was a great performer, you know, an incredible performer. Man, when the lights went on, she was so good. So I'll tell you a quick story. So the, she loved the Texas Rangers, right?

And the Texas Rangers are this mythic, but not just mythic, but it's a true organization. But there's mythic stories about them. And these are guys who all wear open road Stetsons, by the way, but there's only a hundred of them at any time.

And it started off back, you know, a couple hundred years ago and there was a riot down on the border and they, they call for the Texas Rangers to come down the train. Finally, you know, the whole town's in a, a riot.

And the train comes in and one guy walks off and the mayor says, where's, where's all the rest of you? And he turns to him, says, one riot, one ranger. So that's kind of the ethos of the Texas Rangers.

But Richards loved them because they all looked like Clint Eastwood. Six, four, just tough dudes. And so she used to, you know, I remember her kind of walking through the convention with those guys surrounding her.

You know, women would just kind of swoon as they'd walk by, but she was in a small airplane on the campaign and on the tarmac and there was a bomb scare, a bomb threat.

And so she had to sit out there for like four hours and like 100 degree heat and it was baking in the plane and she was in there and just sweated out and pitted out. And then she, you have to imagine her voice, which was epic, describing all this.

And then she, she talks about how this, she's in the back of the plane in the dark, and then the plane door opens up and a like, celestial shaft of life shines, shines through and in walks this again. Six foot Four Ranger bent over, takes off his hat, looks at her and says, afternoon, ma'am. My name is G.W. hildebrand, Texas Ranger.

I'm here to take you home and tuck you in. And she, she says her first thought was how she had dirty pantyhose hanging on the shower at home.

But that's just, that's, that's typical Ann Richards. And, you know, she just, just was a great character. I got, you know, I knew her, her, all her family, really.

Cecile Richards was, who just passed away herself, sadly, was, you know, great character, too, and ran Planned Parenthood for years and just a, you know, a great Texas legendary character and family. And again, kind of a time passed, but a legend for sure.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:26:44

Mark, you did a piece in Vanity Fair the day after the election. It was a letter to your daughters, Britain, Kendall.

've gone from Ann Richards to: 2016

And I just, you know, I'm hopeful that, you know, someday that, you know, we'll have a female president, but we're not there yet. So what, what motivated you to pin this letter to your daughters?

Mark McKinnon: 00:27:22

Well, so, you know, we've all been around long enough that we know that the pendulum swings and it does, and it will.

And I believe there will be a woman president and I think, I think a well qualified woman candidate, all things being equal, will be much more appealing to the American electorate for lots of reasons than a typical male candidate.

er was with me in New York in: 2016

And this was her first sort of political awakening. She had gotten interested and involved and, and then just crushed by that disappointment.

And I mean, literally couldn't get out of bed for three days. And I saw that.

And then, you know, it was just so sad then to see, you know, young, young voters, especially young women, get so excited about that candidacy and then to be, you know, knocked back to a, you know, you know, again, whatever your politics are, she was a well qualified candidate.

So when Harris came around, it was like, okay, we got a second chance, you know, and, and for me, again, I, you know, I, I, for all obvious reasons we share, I thought she was, you know, not Only a good candidate, but well qualified and would be potentially a good president and, and thought she was going to win and as did my daughter and lots of other women. And so I, of course, you know, I was disappointed, but, you know, I'm, I've been around seven centuries. Seven decades.

And you know, so I've, I've seen, I've seen this and I know stuff bounces back, but they haven't.

And so to get this one, two punch at first Clinton, then Harris, I just, I, My greatest fear is that they would give up, you know, and just give up on the idea of, you know, a better, a different, better world and you know, and the possibility that a woman could be in charge. And so that, that's what inspired the letter.

And because, you know, as badly as I felt, I knew there were a whole lot of people, including especially young women that were hurting a lot worse than I was.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:29:54

Well, you know, there's been a real stratification with, in fact, you pinned a piece on that too back the magnification of young men, you know, with the Joe Rogan, Charlie Kirk, you know, a lot of, A lot of young men have latched onto that where, you know, a lot of young women are kind of repulsed by it. How do we, you know, it seems like nowadays that, you know, the far right owns social media. They've beaten the mainstream media into submission.

They know the big law firms are all bending over universities. How do we, how do we break through that, that barrier and be able to communicate that?

Mark McKinnon: 00:30:38

voters and, and the, and the: 2024

So hopefully by the time I'm done with this, I'll have some, some greater insights than I do right now, but I have some. And one is just that I, I think there's a legitimate critique of the Democratic Party in the sense that the three most important.

I'm quoting my friend Paul Bagala Wheeler, I'm sure you know him, who's, who said the three most important words in the English language are not I love you, it's I hear you.

And the Democratic Party, you know, while boosting a lot of demographic groups appropriately, you know, it's ignored young white men and, you know, just didn't communicate with them. And, and they ultimately said, well, they're not listening to me. I'm going to find somebody who, who will and does.

And the Republican Party and Charlie Kirk and others said, you know, hey, you know, we will. We got a place for you over here.

And so, you know, it's, it's about communicating and it's about recognizing that, you know, all people want to be heard.

And you know, but listen, that's, and I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole lot of psychology that goes into what's happening with young, you know, men, particularly young white men in society and their isolation and their loneliness and just what's happening to them that's, you know, worthy of, you know, a podcast on its own. And as I said, hopefully our documentary will address that. But in some ways, but the, you know, I, I'm, I think that the best thing that happened.

Listen, I learned a lot more from losing campaigns and winning campaigns. When you lose, losing campaigns is the worst feeling in the world.

Winning's fun, it's a great feeling, but you don't ever want to feel that losing feeling again. And so that drives you to be better and smarter. And I think that when you spend time in the political desert, you learn to find water.

And I think that's what's happening with Democrats now. I think they're getting smarter and they're recognizing mistakes made in the last campaign. And I think that they listen.

I mean, I think it's going to be relatively easy because I think the fundamental message will be by the time these guys finish screwing things up so badly, the message will be not that, you know, which will be pretty simple, but I also think that, you know, also to get out of the desert, you need Moses.

And so we don't know who that's going to be yet, but it's, somebody's got to rise up and, you know, become the personification of, you know, what people are living and feeling and breathing and, you know, hoping and, but, but that's what politics all about and that's what primary processes are about. And we'll see what, what, what shakes out.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:33:43

Yeah. You know, James Carville has a op ed in the New York Times today. So, yeah.

Where he describes Trump as a one trick Shetland pony who makes big promises because remember, he promised that he would end the war in Ukraine before he ever took office. And inflation on day one. He was going to take care of that.

And you know, Carville's point in his op ed was the Democrats just need to be quiet and let, and let Trump be Trump. And when people start to feel the pain, then they'll get the message that.

Mark McKinnon: 00:34:17

Don'T no need to catch a falling knife.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:34:20

Right.

Mark McKinnon: 00:34:21

George Bush used to say, shoot low, they're riding Shetlands.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:34:27

Well, hopefully you Know, the Democrats have gotten the message. I mean, when you've got a 29 approval rating, you've got problems.

I know right after the election there's an article in the Hill where you were, you were saying it was a November was an ass kicking for the Democrats. So what gives you hope that we're going to find the path forward?

Mark McKinnon: 00:34:49

Well, just history is a big part of it. And also I just how completely these guys are screwing it up.

I mean, you know, I won't go into all the specifics, but they inherited really, you know, despite their disinformation, campaign of very decent economy that they didn't need to do much to, to, you know, they just needed to just keep it on cruise control and it would have been a lot of good news for a lot of people. And they, they've screwed that up already and it looks like it's going to get a lot worse.

And, but I, but I, you know, I think that the, the important thing is to focus, pick your, pick your targets. That's what Carville saying is, you know, could.

Part of what they do is, you know, they come up with this ridiculous, like a third term and, and a big part of that's just designed to make Democrats go crazy and get distracted. So Carvel's just saying, you know, that's not going to happen.

Just, just ignore that shit and focus on the stuff that really matters to people, like the economy. Stupid. And you know, his, his mantra is it was true then, it's true now. And the good news is that you're blessed by the opposition here.

So get focused, get focused on an economic message and just, you know, start, get, get the spring training going right.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:36:02

You know, back in, in: 2006

And so I got to work with Lindsey Graham and John McCain on the legislation to, And I remember I, we were in Lindsey Graham's office and I told, I knew Lindsay from the Air Force, and I told him that my policy as chief prosecutor was we wouldn't use any evidence obtained by torture. And when McCain came in the room, he said, tell John what you, what you told me.

And so I repeated it and McCain grabbed me by the shoulder, said, I'm so glad to hear you say that. Now what do you need to get the job done right?

And to me it's amazing that, you know, the two of them are the ones that kind of single Handedly pushed back against the Bush administration in a lot of the post 911 policies.

And to see that Lindsey Graham from then, to the Lindsey Graham we see now, it's like when John McCain left and when he died, that Lindsey Graham lost his moral compass.

Mark McKinnon: 00:37:12

Yeah. Well, again, thank you for serving. And I mean, that was heroic stuff from McCain back then. Just another great example.

I mean, it just would miss his voice so terribly because there's just nobody with his kind of backbone anymore, especially Lindsay Graham, to see what's happened with him. Can I tell you a quick McCain story that's just kind of similar?

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:37:33

Yeah.

Mark McKinnon: 00:37:34

love McCain, even during the: 2000

And so in: 2004

And so we got down there and we're in the green room, and it's, you know, there's 15 or 20 people all kind of roaming around, and McCain's doing his Angelo Dundee. You're going to get them, George. You're going to do great.

And there's a television in the corner that, that has a news story about an NFL football player who played for the Denver Broncos, and he had sown the number of a fallen comrade named Pat Tillman.

And Pat Tillman was the famous NFL football player who left after 9, 11, walked away from a 11, 7 or 11 million dollars salary and volunteered to go to Afghanistan that was killed tragically in friendly fire.

And so the news story was about how the NFL commissioner was, like, fining this guy for the, for honoring his fallen comrade because it was a violation of NFL uniform rules to have anything else on your uniform. And then it cut to McCain in the snooze story, just putting that guy through an acid bath and typical McCain style.

So I went up to McCain, who I didn't really know that well at this point, and I said, you know, Senator, I just wanted. I just saw this news story with you, and I just want to tell you how much, how much I appreciate what you said.

But I also wanted to say, you know, that I, too, feel very strongly about Pat Tillman. So strongly that when it happened, there was a Sports Illustrated cover story about him that said, never forget this man.

And I really took that to heart and I said, well, how can I make sure I don't forget him?

And so I went and got the one and only tattoo that I've Ever gotten on my arm of the same thing that the, his, the NFL guy done and tattooed the number 40 on my shoulder, which most people think it was just a drunk 40th birthday, but, but then McCain says, oh, McKinnon, and he makes me strip down in the green room, like, take off my clothes, and I show him. And when he sees the tattoo, he teared up and then hugged me and he said, mckinnon, I knew there was a reason I liked you.

That was kind of our bonding moment.

David B. Wheeler: 00:40:17

ome. So let's jump forward to: 2028

You don't, if you don't mind, who, who on the Democratic side should folks like Mo and myself and our listeners keep an eye on.

And then maybe a couple folks on the Republican side that you think could get this country back to where the three of us could actually get a decent night's sleep.

Mark McKinnon: 00:40:45

Well, you know, like I said, it's got to be Moses. The, you know, and it could very, it could very well be somebody that we haven't seen before or that's not on the list right now.

And, you know, given people's sort of, sort of feelings about both parties these days, I, I keep that slot open for somebody that maybe is not a, you know, I mean, they're talking about Stephen Smith running for president, which I think is a little nuts, but, but, you know, that's the kind of world we live in right now. I mean, look at Gen Z and their feelings about both parties and the rising number of independents.

So, you know, somebody who's not a typical party person. I mean, the typical ones would be Josh Shapiro or Gretchen Whitmer. Cory Booker kind of raised his stakes again with that great speech.

And, you know, so I think those, I like a Midwestern governor, I guess, you know, I'm a big fan of Whitmer's, although I guess she did herself some damage the other day.

So I, I, I, again, I like Midwestern governors, but again, I, I think, you know, I'd love to, you know, maybe it's a Mark Cuban or somebody from the private sector. I have no idea.

I don't know who's left in the Republican Party that considers themselves a Republican now that's, you know, in, in decent graces with maga that, that, that, you know, I, I may, I want to bring back Matt Romney or, you know, anybody I, I don't know of. I mean, the Republican Party's in such shambles.

I can't even think of anybody who's like, you know, a member there in good standing or even in standing anymore that considers themselves a Republican that could, you know, I mean, Nikki Haley, I don't know.

I mean, it's, the thing is, if it melts down, I don't, it's going to take a long time because I think there's going to be a core, no matter how badly things may go here in the short term, I think MAGA is probably around for the long term, just in the sense that there's going to be a 30% of that base that will never take any accountability, will never blame Trump, will blame the media, will blame Burma because it's just victimhood, victimhood, victimhood. And I think it's going to take a meltdown to ever restore any sanity to that party. So I hope it melts down.

I hope that, you know, it's probably going to be J.D. vance or, you know, somebody of that ilk and, and I trying to carry that MAGA torch.

And I just think it's going to take a while for that torch to go out.

So I think, but I think it's going to be for those reasons and all the calamity and chaos that's going to happen, I think it's going to be a really great opportunity for Democrats to swing this pendulum back or, or.

David B. Wheeler: 00:43:29

For Democrats to almost win and then it up completely again. So.

Mark McKinnon: 00:43:35

Yes.

David B. Wheeler: 00:43:37

What about Mark Cuban? I know he's a fellow Texan and, and we've, I've, we've had some talks with him in the past. What are your thoughts about Mark?

Mark McKinnon: 00:43:48

I'm a fan. I'm a fan. I mean, I think, you know, he's the kind of guy that's got big ideas, got, got a ton of money.

He's the kind of guy that I, you know, I think he's exactly the sort of private sector guy who, you know, would come with good private sector ideas and you know, good, you know, business friendly approach. But, you know, but is, believes in sort of, you know, big D and small D Democratic principles. So I think I put him on the list for sure.

David B. Wheeler: 00:44:26

Yeah. No, I think he's, I think he's terrific. He's smart. He's, he's, he doesn't have, seem to have the gene now.

Yeah, he may, he may beg to differ on that and maybe his wife does too, but you gotta have a.

Mark McKinnon: 00:44:40

Little bit of it to get.

David B. Wheeler: 00:44:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mark McKinnon: 00:44:42

You have to have kind of a give a gene.

David B. Wheeler: 00:44:45

Yeah.

All right, well, so Mark, just one more quick question and then we'll wrap this up so you can get back on, get back out on your horse or your Shetland. And so, so what gets you up in the morning, my friend?

I mean, obviously our listeners hear a lot of gloom and doom and the market's going all over the place and Trump's making up and, and really, I, I, if I ever get the chance to see or talk to that guy, I just, the one question I, I'd like to ask him is, do you have any idea the effect what you do and says on other people?

Mark McKinnon: 00:45:24

Well, the answer is it's clearly no. And he doesn't give a no, he.

David B. Wheeler: 00:45:27

Just doesn't talk about that.

Mark McKinnon: 00:45:28

Empathy always has been. You know, what gets me up, guys, is no matter how chaotic and gloomy things may look out there, I, I am, I feel incredibly blessed, incredibly lucky.

I, I, you know, I, I have a gratitude list I think about every day and I, you know, for all the things that are wrong, I think about the, the things that are right. And you know, and I have, you know, I'm surrounded by, you know, grandkids and family and I live in Colorado where I grew up and I love it.

And I, I, I would leave you with this thought that I saw, was reminded of recently. Albert Einstein said that, that believe that either everything's a miracle or nothing's a miracle.

And so Einstein chose to believe that everything's a miracle. And I'm kind of in that camp. I'm in the miracle camp. I think, I think life's a miracle. And again, I'm a prisoner of hope.

And I know the cell's dark, but the flame's still shining.

David B. Wheeler: 00:46:30

Well, that's a perfect place for us to end this. So that'll be a wrap for mucu, where the mud flies and the phonies fry, which Mark McKinnon is certainly not one of them.

I'm David Wheeler, the ringmaster of this muckfest alongside Colonel Mo Davis, who's tougher than a sovereign oak and twice as rooted. Grab Moe's book on Amazon.com if you've got taste. Again, that's sovereign oak. Thank you again to our guest today, the imitable in immutable.

I'll get it right someday. Mark McKinnon. Read his latest article on Vanity Fair dot com. We'll catch you next time when we rake it up again. Until then, muck you.

Jimmy Muckraker: 00:47:18

This has been Muck youk Co hosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville, North Carolina, and David Wheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina. Thanks to our guest today, Mark McKinnon.

merican Muckrakers. Copyright: 2025

Hope y'all come back soon for a new episode.

David B. Wheeler: 00:47:59

You know who made it.