Justice Bob Orr Unplugged: Riggs v. Griffin, NC Politics, and Peanut Butter Bourbon!

David B. Wheeler: 00:00:10

Grinds grandiose gibberish into glittering dust under the big top of biting brilliance. Who says alliteration is dead?

I'm David Wheeler, your audacious and marginally mirthful maestro from American muckrakers hurling razor edged repulsed at the clownish calamities of politics and culture. Bob, you have no idea what you got yourself into.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:00:32

That's true.

David B. Wheeler: 00:00:34

Prepare for a dazzling deluge of daring discourse that'll leave you gasping in the sawdust strewn stands. Before we plunge into the muck filled midway, here's Colonel Mo Davis ready to unfurl his own fanfare and present our spectacular guest.

Take it away, Mo.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:00:51

Well, I feel so inadequate after that. No, listen, thanks everybody for, for joining in again. It's a pleasure to be back with you.

And we've got a, a special guest today, the honorable Bob, or who I think folks here in North Carolina certainly know quite well. But he's particularly suited, you know, to join David and I, you know, because I'm here in Asheville.

David's up in Spruce Pine, but Judge or has deep roots in this area. He was raised over in Henderson county, practice law here in Buncombe county and today he's up in Y County to his place up there.

So Judge or, it's a real privilege to have you on here. Thank you for doing this.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:01:36

Well, it's a treat to talk with you two guys and it's always, always a treat to be in western North Carolina. I'm halfway between you and Buncombe county and David over in Mitchell Counties. Yeah.

David B. Wheeler: 00:01:50

And it's a beautiful day here in western North Carolina. So man, that's the weather here is the, pretty nice today. Hey, listen, let's start out.

You, you know, had a long history in the Republican Party, you know, serving on the Supreme Court for, for quite a few years. You were a gubernatorial candidate on the Republican side. You were a delegate to the Republican convention.

And you know, next thing you know, we're, you know, you're here stumping, stumping for Kamala Harris. So how did that, how did that transition take place?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:02:23

Oh my God.

was a John Kasich guy back in: 2016

ate, a Kasich delegate to the: 2016

I think he's a danger to the country and a danger to the Republican Party. And that night I got an email that my credentials were being withheld unless I did a mea culpa.

s a short tenure there at the: 2016

help Joe Biden get elected in: 2020

And then after January 6, I said, I just can't be affiliated with the, the party any longer based upon what happened in the responses in the Republican Party. And so I became unaffiliated. And, you know, it's kind of a, kind of a cool status these days.

David B. Wheeler: 00:04:16

Well, you're in the biggest group, you know, here in North Carolina, unaffiliated is the biggest category of voters. So you're, you're not alone.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:04:23

Yeah, it's, it's the fastest growing and in the. Really, the key to literally every election is, you know, how are the unaffiliated voters going to, going to break.

David B. Wheeler: 00:04:36

Well, you know, it's interesting to me, too, that, you know, as you just said, it's the biggest voting group here in North Carolina, but under state law, you know, we just had the ouster of the head of the board of elections after the Republican appointees took over. But.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:04:54

Right.

David B. Wheeler: 00:04:55

Unaffiliated voters are prohibited from serving on boards of election. You got to be a member of the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. And the biggest group of voters are ineligible from serving.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:05:06

Yeah, the interesting thing, there was a lawsuit that actually challenged that.

And so they went back and technically changed the law to, so that the chair of the Republican Party, the chair of the Democratic Party, could appoint an unaffiliated voter, but they never do. And so, you know, it was form over substance, but the lawsuit ended up getting dismissed.

But as a practical matter, you know, the 40% of the North Carolina electorate who are registered as unaffiliated voters or even in, you know, the sort of fringe parties, Libertarian, the Green Party, they, they have no service, no opportunity to realistically serve on local boards of rela of elections or certainly on the state board, unless they're a Democrat or a Republican. It's fundamentally unfair. Something that needs to be changed, but I don't, don't know that's going to happen anytime soon.

David B. Wheeler: 00:06:04

Yeah, it seems like the two parties hate each other, but they'd rather have the enemy they know than a, another, a potential enemy out there to have to deal with.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:06:13

Yeah.

David B. Wheeler: 00:06:14

Let me ask you, you know, this week, finally, at long last, the Allison Riggs Jefferson Griffin case came to a conclusion. But God, that drug on for, for six months.

It was the last race of all the races in the country to, and I guess it officially has not been certified yet, but will be soon. But you know, the Republicans have a, you know, with her being seated again or have a 5, 2 majority, I mean, had they won, they'd have a 61 majority.

And I don't know what you can do with a 6:1 majority. You can't do with a 5, 2. So why spend all this time and money and, you know, put the state through all this turmoil over this one seat?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:07:04

Well, here's OR's theory on it.

And after the: 2020

And so I think all of this was set up for Trump. But then at least in North Carolina, he didn't need it. He won the state by considerable margin.

The other two really important statewide races for governor and attorney general, the Democrats unhandedly. So the only, the only close race out there was this Supreme Court seat.

And in my opinion, I think there was a command decision at the Washington level. Well, we've got the lawyers, we've got the money, we've got favorable courts.

Let's push this and see how successful our theories might be or what kind of precedent we can establish. And so I judge Griffin, to a certain extent, obviously he had to agree to it, but to a certain extent I think he was along for the ride.

And this was essentially being driven at the national level. And, and yeah, it took six months, but if they'd kept appealing, it could have been another year. But fortunately it is.

David B. Wheeler: 00:08:49

Yeah, I was glad to see that he put out the announcement. He wasn't going to appeal, but I was kind of expecting it to keep dragging on. But at least that's behind us now.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:08:58

Well, I will Say Judge Meyer, who, of course, was Trump appointee from his first term, the federal District Court judge that, that ruled against Judge Griffin's position.

I mean, wrote a really strong decision and actually took some subtle shots at the Supreme Court and Court of Appeals Republican majorities that had allowed at least part of Judge Griffin's lawsuit to continue.

And, I mean, it was, it was sufficiently strong that I think Griffin's legal team said, well, there's no way we're going to get this reversed at the Fourth Circuit. Supreme Court won't take it, so let's just go ahead and, and wrap it up.

But it was a pretty damning opinion from Judge Meyer and again, somebody who was a Trump appointee.

David B. Wheeler: 00:09:54

Right? Yeah.

You certainly can't, you know, scream that he's some, you know, liberal activist judge when he has a Trump member of the Federalist Society of the nra. Kind of hard to say that, you know, he was a, a liberal plant, but.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:10:08

Yeah, actually, actually, Mo, you, you may remember this guy, guy named Madison Cath Thorne.

David B. Wheeler: 00:10:15

That name sounds familiar.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:10:17

Yeah, that, you know, there was. There was some litigation I was involved in with a national group trying to disqualify Cawthorn under the U.S. constitution.

And, and the case came before Judge Meyer, and he wrote a very favorable opinion on behalf of Cawthorn. And, you know, we had to get him reversed at the 4th Circuit. And then, you know, then Chuck Edwards beat Cawthorn in the primary.

But, you know, I mean, his rulings have certainly not been on the liberal side or in my experience with him.

David B. Wheeler: 00:10:56

Yeah, I read his opinion. I thought it was very well written.

And particularly at the end, he, you know, he said, you know, anybody that's ever played a board game or sports knows that you don't change the rules after the game's over. And.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:11:06

Yeah, yeah, but obviously Judge Griffin's legal team didn't believe that.

David B. Wheeler: 00:11:12

Hey, speaking of litigation, I know you've got a case that's ongoing, the Fair Elections case. Can you. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what's going on with that case and why you brought it?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:11:23

Yeah, and I, I really appreciate you giving me a chance to talk about it, and I, I wish there was a way to simplify it, but I'll. I'll do the best I can. You know, there's, there's been a.

A ream of litigation over the years around the country and certainly here in North Carolina over partisan gerrymandering. You know, the, the drawing of districts in such a way is to create a map that favors your political party.

And a few years back in a case out of North Carolina, the U.S. supreme Court said that partisan gerrymandering was a non justiciable political question under the U.S. constitution.

And you know, there was no limitation on what the legislature could do when it came to partisan gerrymandering.

We ended up with a similar decision out of the North Carolina Supreme Court in the Harper 3 case in which they said that the claim for proportionality, you know, there should be half Democrat, half Republican seats, that there was no state constitutional claim for that.

So those decisions essentially told the General assembly, when it comes to political gamesmanship, you can cook the books, you know, stack the deck, rig the, rig the system any way you want to because the courts can't do anything about it. But there was a question asked at the oral argument and it said, well, do we have a right to fair elections?

And that got me thinking, well, do we have a constitutional right under the state constitution to fair elections? And so we ended up and have brought this lawsuit with a group of 11 plaintiffs, good citizens, good government folks.

And we're raising, you know, the question not, not in the context of the maps, but in very specific districts where General assembly manipulated the voter pool by shifting these people here and adding these people, all of, all of whom they had this in depth political data so they know essentially how they're going to vote. And they created three congressional districts that had been toss up districts in which there were Democrat incumbents.

But after they manipulated the voting pool, all three Democrat incumbents declined to run. And in fact, at least in one of the districts there was no Democrat ran. And so the question is, I mean, everybody says what do you mean by fair?

Well, what we mean by fair is that government, in this case, the General assembly can't rig an election by manipulating the voter pool using all of this political data to in essence guarantee how the election's going to come out. And so it's not a political gerrymandering case and as, as you know, has been litigated previously, but it is a fair election case.

And I know I probably bored your listeners to tears with that explanation. But the, you know, the question is, well, where, where does it say in the Constitution that you have a right to fair elections?

Well, it doesn't, you know, it says you got a right to frequent elections, you got a right to free elections. But, but it doesn't say anything about fair elections. So we have argued that the unenumerated rights provision provides for fair elections.

And that provision in the declaration of rights essentially says, yeah, we've set out specific rights, but we also have these unenumerated rights which the people still retain. And our position is if you don't have a right to fair elections, you've completely undermined democracy.

I mean, the whole concept of government and electing the people, giving them power, is dependent upon fair election.

A fair election meaning that the General assembly, whether it's Democrat controlled or Republican controlled, can't manipulate the process so as to influence the outcome. So in a long winded, not terribly simple explanation, that's where we are. We lost at the trial level.

It's on appeal to the intermediate appellate court, court of appeals. We do not have a date for oral argument yet or a panel assigned, but it will either be in June or early in the fall.

David B. Wheeler: 00:16:19

So justice or I moved here in: 2010

David B. Wheeler: 00:16:26

That.

David B. Wheeler: 00:16:28

gerrymandering as well before: 2010

Justice Bob Orr: 00:16:47

You know, I mean, yeah, they were. The, the difference is the Republicans now have the benefit of substantially more sophisticated technology and data.

I had a prominent Republican political consultant tell me that he had 2,000 data points of information on every voter in the state.

Now, if you have that kind of data, information, and with the sophisticated computer technology that we have today, if you want to draw a district with 8% Methodist, 4% teachers, you know, 36% registered Democrats, and then, you know that based upon past elections, that this pool of voters voted Republican nine times out of 10, both at the state and national level.

You know, you have the ability to, with, with laser like precision, determine the outcome of the election before the people ever even have a chance to vote. And yeah, if, if the Democrats were in power, they'd probably, probably be using the same technology to stick it to the Republicans.

But, but, but, sorry to interrupt, Bob.

David B. Wheeler: 00:18:20

But as a, you know, a venerated jurist in this state, how does that make you feel? I mean, you're a guy that is steeped in the law and loves the law. What, how does that make you feel about politics in this state?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:18:36

Well, yeah, I mean, it is, it's a national issue.

I mean, there, there are few places that have systems that, you know, take the political aspect out of drawing districts, but it, but it really is undermining democracy. And, and you know, we talk a lot about it. We talked about it a lot in this last election.

ot to do is look, look at the: 2024

I mean, out of 120 state House legislative seats, maybe a half dozen were actually competitive, you know, and that's by design. And so you're, you're undermining the ability of the people to really have an influence on the election process. So, yeah, it concerns me.

I mean, it's a good government issue. And we argue in our briefs in this case that, you know, we don't care whether a Democrat wins or a Republican wins or a Libertarian wins.

The bottom line is government can't dictate who wins. You know, it's the voters, the people.

And that's the whole, you know, historic concept of, you know, the founding of this country and the beginning of, you know, this state.

And we're getting ready in a year to be commemorating the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence and the first constitution in the state of North Carolina. And, you know, this whole historical basis of democracy has to be rooted in government not picking and choosing who gets to win.

I mean, otherwise we're not any better than Russia.

David B. Wheeler: 00:20:36

What's the point of having elections?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:20:38

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, you might as well not not have elections.

David B. Wheeler: 00:20:42

Yeah, well, here's another question. So obviously you guys are in litigation over this, and so you've got probably a broader national view than anybody else in North Carolina.

But what is the trend nationally? Is it towards this sort of hyper partisan gerrymandering?

Or is there ever going to be a point where we go back to a level of fairness similar to, you know, I grew up in Iowa, and the Iowa plan used to be pretty fair. I think they've made some changes to make it less fair. But where is it swinging this day?

And do you see any hope that it could swing back to fairness?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:21:23

Well, you know, it swings to fairness when the body politic is fairly evenly divided.

If the legislature right now was out of, let's say, the state House, if it was 65 Republicans and 55 Democrats, or maybe 62 and 58, you know, both parties may say, okay, you know, it makes sense to go to an apolitical line drawing process or, or a, you know, distribution of voters process, but as long as, you know, a party has a stranglehold on power, which now in North Carolina, the Republican Party has legislatively, even though they're, you Know, there's, they're one vote short of a veto proof majority in both houses, you know, and there's some states, I'm sure, California, where for example, where the Democrats have that stranglehold. But, but people don't want to give up power.

I mean in, I've been kicking around politics here in North Carolina one way or the other, you know, 50 years and neither the Republicans nor the Democrats when push comes to shove, want to give up power. And to give up cooking the books on, on legislative and congressional districts is just, it seems like it's too much to ask them.

Yeah, they just aren't willing, willing to give that power up. And frankly there was a big, big bipartisan push when the Democrats controlled the legislature.

ou know, I'm saying the early: 2000

And they just couldn't get the votes to do it. And then the Republicans take control and they're like, okay, we know how you work.

David B. Wheeler: 00:23:39

Payback's a bitch. Bob, I know you probably don't use that phrase, but I do. That's right, that's right. But, but justice or I mean one of the differences is California.

I think the legislature probably a little more reflective of the population of the California.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:23:55

Yeah, yeah.

David B. Wheeler: 00:23:55

The partisan makeup versus, you know, Mo's probably going to jump in here a second. I'm going to steal his stat.

But you know, Democrats are not, they're in the minority, but it's just by a little bit, you know, voter wise in the state. But they're clearly outflanked in the legislature.

And that, that is the big difference in my mind between North Carolina and California is California is a little more legislature is a little more reflective of the people.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:24:23

But yeah, well, you know, that was the argument that the Democrat plaintiffs in the Rucho case and the Harper case, they said look, we're a 50, 50 state, therefore the districts should be proportional.

In both the US Supreme Court and the North Carolina Supreme Court said, well, there's no constitutional right to proportionality and we don't know how, you know, what constitutes, you know, a fair proportion. Is it, let's say congressional seats? Is it seven and seven? Is it six, six and two toss ups? You know, is it, you know, all or all or nothing?

I, you know, people just, you know, the public has to, I think, you know, put pressure on the legislature. But if you're in a, if you're in a.

Well, you know, look, David, the, the House district, senatorial district that you live in, that, that I'm a registered voter in, you know, it's overwhelming Republicans. So are, are the, our representatives going to vote to give away power? I don't think so.

David B. Wheeler: 00:25:34

the state. You know, even in: 2024

He won pretty handily for governor, and then Donald Trump, you know, won on the presidential side. So it seems like we truly are.

You know, people talk about purple states that this is a purple state in that 77 map seemed to be pretty reflective, but, you know, it got redrawn and now it's 10 4, which is not really reflective of the voters. And it really shifted. I mean, that's the difference.

If you look at the House of Representatives, now that you're taking away those three seats is made a big difference.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:26:24

Yeah, but, you know, and they see that, okay, we cook the books in North Carolina, we picked up three congressional seats.

And not only does that help the political party in North Carolina, but gosh, look at the effect it had nationally in determining the, the majority in the House of Representatives. But, but that's the point, Mo.

And really the point of the litigation is if you can manipulate who gets to vote for a particular seat so as to statistically virtually guarantee that your candidate's going to win, I mean, you've, you've undermined the whole concept of a fair election and in government just can't do it.

The whole concept of the Constitution, state Constitution in particular, is that the people place limitations on their government through the Constitution.

But if how you select those people is undermined by this, this manipulation of the, of the district process, then you just completely, like I said, undermine democracy.

David B. Wheeler: 00:27:44

Right.

You know, this week, Chief Justice Roberts was speaking up in Buffalo and spoke up about the independence of the judiciary and it being a check and balance on both the legislative and executive branches. It, it seems like Congress is, certainly appears to have just given up on their duty to act as a check and balance.

It seems like the judiciary to an extent is. And so I was really happy to see the Chief justice say that.

But, but what's your thought on the role of the judiciary and the environment we're in right now?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:28:24

Well, I think it's probably one of the most dangerous elements of where we are today in that both the federal judiciary and in many states, the state judiciary have become not only actually more partisan, but the whole process of getting to be a judge and the way the media treats them, the way the public treats them, the way the party treats them is that they're not supposed to be independent. You're supposed to be a loyal Republican or you're supposed to be a loyal Democrat. And you have confirmation hearings at the, at the U.S.

senate for presidential nominations to the federal bench. And there are all these litmus tests, all these questions asked that are trying to stake them out.

And the, the real genius of the, the three branches of government in our system is the independent judiciary, that they're there to keep both the legislative branch and the executive branch within their, within their boundaries.

And, and if, if the courts are unwilling to do that and if they're making decisions based upon the political party of the advocates, then you have lost all, all efforts to, you know, contain excesses of power.

So, and, and I think, you know, I mean, I ran five statewide partisan elections, and so I served eight years on the Court of Appeals, 10 on the Supreme Court as a, as an elected partisan. But I will have to say in, in my experience, you know, for the most part, the work of the court was viewed as apolitical.

And you know, every now and then you get a hot button political case and, you know, folks tended to break along sort of, you know, their, their backgrounds politically.

But it was, we, we didn't view ourselves as the, When Bev Lake and I were elected to Supreme Court in 94, five, two, Democrat, Republican, we didn't consider ourselves the Republican caucus or, you know, that, that we were there as representatives of the Republican Party. You know, we were there as, as independent jurist.

And I, I think that that way of thinking about judges, both, both by the individuals serving as judges and, you know, the people who put them there in the public and the media, you know, all see them as partisans. And it, it really worries me that it's, it's undermining the, the whole concept of the independent judiciary.

David B. Wheeler: 00:31:31

You know, the last couple weeks we've had Adam Kinzinger on and, and Joe Walsh and you know, both were, you know, pretty conservative Republicans when they served in Congress. And both are kind of, you know, without a party now because they're, you know, certainly not welcome back in the Republican Party.

But, you know, both of them said that we'd ask them, you know, could you see yourself being a Democrat? And they said, you know, if the Democrat Democratic Party opened their aperture and had a broader range, you know, from center to, to far left.

But you know, it seems like in recent years the Democratic Party's kind of had that purity test as well where, you know, if you didn't click all the boxes on, you know, social issues, then, you know, there wasn't room for you. But you know, they said if the party had a broader range that they could see themselves in the Democratic Party. Do you see?

I mean, you, you know, you were working for Kamala Harris to try to get, get her elected. Could you ever see yourself being in the Democratic Party?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:32:37

Well, you know, my mother, rest her soul, was a retired public school teacher. She was a lifelong Democrat.

So, you know, the, the irony is that, that I spent 45 years of my life beginning at a time when Republicans were really very much minority party.

You know, so, so my career as, as a member of the Republican Party was trying to build a viable two party state really on a platform of good government. Because we didn't think the Democrats were, you know, as, as good government oriented as they should be in, in, in a lot of ways.

And you know, I mean, I think people today, particularly with so many people moving here, they don't know their history.

ed to the Court of appeals in: 1988

But you know, I mean, I, I wouldn't, I supported a number of Democrats here over the last few years, but first part of my career it was fighting Democrats and every time I ran they were trying to beat me. So, so I guess there's still a little residual reluctance on my part to be a member of the Democratic Party.

nto both my opponent from the: 2002

So I, I never foresaw that, but that's where I am.

David B. Wheeler: 00:35:01

All right, let me ask. You know, you and I both, when, you know, David's, you know, relative newcomer to North Carolina, but you know, you and I grew up, grew up here.

And, you know, back when we were young, you know, North Carolina was the envy of the South. You know, we had good schools and good roads and we had Research Triangle park. For anybody ever heard of Silicon Valley, what happened?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:35:29

Well, you know, I, I like to blame talk media.

I mean, I, I really do think social media and the, the whole, I mean, is, is, you remember, Mo, we, we grew up watching three, maybe three national news networks with Walter Cronkite and Huntley Brinkley and Tom Brokaw and. Or others. And, and, you know, now people don't get their news from television. It's from social media, it's from influencers.

I haven't quite figured out, I guess David's an influencer, you know, but it's.

David B. Wheeler: 00:36:12

Not necessarily the right direction. Yeah, you saw my campaign for.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:36:23

I've been there, I've been there, you know, so I think that the demographics of the state has changed.

I mean, ironically, in the western part of the state, when I was growing up, whether you were a Democrat or Republican probably depended on whether your ancestors fought for the Confederacy or fall for the Union.

You know, now that's old history, but that was the, you know, there was a, in Henderson county, there was a Republican funeral home and there was a Democrat funeral home, and it was based again on, on which side you had picked in the, in the Civil War. So I, I just think, you know, the demographics have changed. The whole media world has changed.

The, you know, the, the culture of, you know, the way people talk to other people, things they, they say and I mean, there are things that are said on television today that my mother would have grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and washed my mouth out with soap and then took a hickory stick to me. I mean, you know, and now it's just sort of common, common practice. So I, you know, things have changed for the worst, in my opinion.

Yeah, there have been a lot of good, good changes in, in some, some areas, obviously, but culturally, you know, the partisanship, the, the tribalism, you know, I think fewer people go to church. You know, maybe that's a problem, but.

David B. Wheeler: 00:38:04

Right.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:38:06

You know, so it's, it's just a very different world than when I was coming along.

I mean, and, you know, I look at when Jim Martin, who was elected twice as a Republican governor, he ran on better roads, better schools and better jobs, you know.

David B. Wheeler: 00:38:22

Right.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:38:23

Which, you know, for governor, that's really where it was at, you know.

Now, you know, it's abortion rights and bathroom bills and, you know, all of these hot button social issues that are driven by the national media landscape.

And I also think from a good government standpoint, that Citizens United, which opened up the, you know, this flood of outside money and dark money into campaigns, is. Has really sort of undermined campaign integrity in a lot of ways.

David B. Wheeler: 00:38:59

Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, when I look back, I think two things.

Citizens United is certainly one in the corrupting influence of money, but the other was, you're talking about, you know, when we were growing up, the news, you know, when Walter Cronkite said that's the way it is, that was the way it was.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:39:15

You're exactly right.

David B. Wheeler: 00:39:16

And, and you could disagree on what the policy implications ought to be from that, but you started out with everybody on the same set of facts, right? And then, then the Fairness Doctrine went away.

And then a couple of years after that, we got Fox News and cnn, and I think, you know, the demise of the Fairness Doctrine and Citizens United, those two combined, to me have a big, big role in where we are today.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:39:42

Yeah, I think you're exactly, exactly right.

In some respects, like Citizens United and campaign finance is even a bigger problem than gerrymandering and in fair elections to, to some extent, I mean, it's just. It's polluted. Polluted races now where they don't even try to tell the truth. It's like. Anyway.

David B. Wheeler: 00:40:07

Well, what about, what about our friend here running for Congress, Bob?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:40:13

Well, I'm all for it now. I'm going to go ahead and say this now. I think Mo's a nice guy, and I think Mo needs to be more of a nice guy.

You know, you, you can, you can hit the, Hit the opponent and the opposition party hard, but I, I'm still a believer that likability is a factor in, in politics in the middle, the swing voters that our friend running for Congress has to get, you know, that we got to make sure they like Mo. Likable guy. So I had to keep him away from you. David, too.

David B. Wheeler: 00:40:53

He's a bad influence.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:40:54

So you're an influence. You're the bad influence.

David B. Wheeler: 00:40:57

Well, listen, I, I haven't said once.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:41:01

Wait, wait.

David B. Wheeler: 00:41:02

I just did. I just did. But, no, that's actually really good advice. And there are ways that we can work around that, I think. And Mo is a good guy.

I mean, look at Lisa. She wouldn't have married him and he'd been an asshole like me. But. So where, where else do you.

What other advice would you have for Mo and for those folks that don't know earlier this week, Mo had an article in the Smoky Mountain News that he's going to run for Congress against a guy I called Chunk Edwards here in western North Carolina. But what other advice do you have for, for Mo?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:41:39

Well, I, I think it's, you got to put together a campaign plan. He and I have talked about it.

I mean, you know, and I think you do it 18 months out and you got to figure out how many votes do I have to have to win in an awful off year election in 26, where are those voters, who are those voters and what are those voters concerned about? And then what's the message that resonates with them?

And I think, I think, you know, unfortunately in Trump world, there's so many issues and so many things that you kind of want to talk about and get people engaged.

We have an information overload and I think the voting public, other than people like us, are becoming more and more disengaged from the information system. So I think having a good game plan that's based upon, again, how many votes do I need to win?

Where are those votes that, you know, that I can pick up that prior candidates have not been able to get?

And what are the two or three really gut issues that I can drive home over and over and over again to get that, that North Asheville unaffiliated, 50 year old housewife with a couple of kids who is living a pretty good lifestyle. How do you get her to devote for Mo as opposed to Chuck Edwards, who, you know, to me Donald Trump is an evil bad guy.

But Chuck Edwards, you know, he's just kind of a guy, right? You know, you know, own some McDonald's, remember a couple of country clubs.

You know, I think he actually, you know, wants North Carolina and western North Carolina to do well. He's just, you know, he's a Trump loyalist. So anyway, so do you, do you.

David B. Wheeler: 00:43:50

Think Mo can win? That's a tough question in front of the candidate.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:43:54

Well, you know, when I, when I ran in 88 for the court of Appeals, nobody thought I could win. I mean, history said I couldn't win. You know, so if I, I think it's winnable.

I mean, you know, Democrats have certainly won congressional seats, but it's got to be, it can't be just a conventional campaign and it can't just be a scorched earth campaign. I think it's got to be a very tactical, shrewdly analyzed, strategic campaign.

And, you know, you're not going to win by a lot, but you only need to win by one.

David B. Wheeler: 00:44:36

What do you think, Mo?

David B. Wheeler: 00:44:39

That's my approach to Wordle every morning. If I get it in six, then I've won. So. No, I. I agree it. And I think, you know, there.

There are enough folks around here, particularly after Hurricane Elena. Folks, you know, we. We were behind before Hurricane Helene hit, and it's really exacerbated the problem.

And I think some of these policies, you know, cutting. I was out hiking yesterday, and it was really kind of eerie. We were along the Blue Ridge Parkway, and it was just dead quiet.

I mean, normally there are cars up and by.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:45:14

Yeah.

David B. Wheeler: 00:45:14

And it's closed.

And so, you know, these cuts to the Park Service and the Forest Service and Noah and all these other things, you know, as people feel the pain, I think it might give folks a pause that they wouldn't have had otherwise. And I think. I think. I just know we can do better for western North Carolina than we've been doing.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:45:38

Yeah. And. And I think, you know, the Blue Ridge Parkway is a great example on. On how you message that you.

You know, in a lot of ways, the Blue Ridge Parkway isn't just a scenic drive. You know, that's great for people interested in the outdoors and the beauty of western North Carolina.

It's a huge economic driver for western North Carolina.

And if it's shut down like it is now and is going to be for a good, good long while, I mean, you can talk about all of the things you're doing to bring back the region, but you're undermining at the same time, if you're pulling out a huge economic engine like the Blue Ridge Parkway for six months or a year or the like. So. But.

ur time in the state, but the: 1980

senate race between a guy named John east, who was a Republican college professor at East Carolina who had had polio, so he was in a wheelchair, was running against an incumbent Democrat senator named Robert Morgan, who'd been Attorney general, and, you know, very moderate conservative, and the east campaign ran one ad, literally one ad that Robert Morgan gave away the Panama Canal, just that simplistic, just that short. And they ran it over and over and over and over till we were all screaming and east ends up and wins the race.

So the power of the right message in delivering it over and over and over is something that I think candidates can sometimes forget about or consultants forget about, so.

David B. Wheeler: 00:47:48

Well, I think we have our issue. Chuck Edwards is the guy that gave away the Panama Canal as far as I'm concerned.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:47:57

Well, Trump's trying to get it back.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:48:01

He gave away the French broad rivers.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:48:03

Yeah. Well, there you go. So, anyway, but I'm excited for Mo. Better. Better him than me, though.

David B. Wheeler: 00:48:14

Yeah. All right, well, this has been a lot of fun. One of the things we do talk about before we wrap these up is bourbon.

So what's, what's your libation of choice these days, Bob?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:48:29

Well, as I'm, I'm trying to support Canada and Scotland because they're against Trump, but this is terrible. I was asking about a graduation present for a college graduate, and they said, oh, peanut butter flavored bourbon is the. Is the hot thing.

I said, you got to be kidding me. And I'll be damned. I went in the ABC store and they said, oh, yeah, we sell a lot of this stuff. And I'm thinking, really?

I've never tried it and probably won't, but the most recent bottle I bought was a Carolina peanut flavored bourbon that was distilled somewhere down on the outer Banks.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:49:20

That's just wrong.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:49:21

It is wrong. It is wrong.

David B. Wheeler: 00:49:24

But you know, Mo, I'm glad you didn't say you loved it because. Yeah, I'm afraid Chuck could use that against you.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:49:32

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Well, he should.

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:49:34

I mean, I like peanut butter and I like bourbon, but the two?

Justice Bob Orr: 00:49:37

Just don't do it again. I know, I know. That's crazy. Great. Well, that shows you the challenges. They're all drinking it on the campus, you know, you got to be aware of.

David B. Wheeler: 00:49:50

Yeah. All right, well, that's a wrap for this romp through the mucky circus. Hold on, Bob, you gotta listen to some more alliteration here, all right?

Where we've skewered the sanctimonious silliness not of Judge Orr, but of others with the flourish.

Justice Bob Orr: 00:50:07

Time out. The battering nabobs of nepotism.

David B. Wheeler: 00:50:11

There we go. I love it. I love it. And I'm David Wheeler, slightly comedic ringleader from American Muckrakers, signing off with the ever gallant Colonel Mo Davis.

If you love this daring display of discourse, join the carnival, join us, follow us, share the show, and dive deeper into the muck at americanmuckrakers.com where you can learn more or toss a coin to keep this big top blazing. Until next time, keep your eye on the long game. Don't stop believing the truth matters.

And with all due respect to Judge Bob Orr, our guest today, Muck you!

Colonel Moe Davis: 00:50:54

All right.

Jimmy Muckraker: 00:50:57

This has been Muck you, co hosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville, North Carolina and David Wheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina. Thanks to our guest today, Justice Bob Orr, former Associate Judge on the North Carolina Supreme Court.

Jimmy Muckraker: 00:51:12

merican Muckrakers. Copyright: 2025

Follow us on Blue sky under AmericanMuckrakers.com and on substack at AmericanMuckrakers.substack.com You can learn more and donate at AmericanMuckrakers.com David and Moe hope y' all come back soon for a new episode. And remember to never take shit from anyone, especially Trumpers.