Bourbon and Bipartisanship with Rep. Wiley Nickel: How to Survive the Political Circus

David Wheeler: 00:00:08

Welcome to another episode of Muck You with my good friend Colonel Moe Davis and myself, David Wheeler. Today our guest is former Representative Wiley Nickel. He'll be always be our Congressman because we had a shitty one at when we had Madiaon Cawthorn and we got a mediocre one with Chuck Edwards. So welcome. Representative Nickel. Appreciate you.

Wiley Nickel: 00:00:28

Yeah, hey, thanks so much. I am always your, your congressman then representing the whole state and, and really appreciate it.

David Wheeler: 00:00:37

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, west of Charlotte, we don't really have much representation at all in any spaces other than our good senator in Asheville and, and a couple decent reps around Buncombe county, but delighted to have you here and, and obviously you're not in Congress anymore. So, so what are you up to these days and kind of, what, what do you, what are your colleagues feeding you about what's going on in DC?

Wiley Nickel: 00:01:01

Well, you know, I, I have, you know, I just returned home from Congress. My, my term ended just a few weeks ago and trying to figure out what to do next.

We're, we're certainly going around talking to folks and trying to learn the lessons from this last election.

e looking at a Senate race in: 2026

I just took my daughter to Disney World, a promise made during my time in Congress, and, you know, trying to figure out how we move forward because we need to change the way we respond to so much know, that is coming out of Washington now. The, the, the old way we dealt with things just won't work anymore. And, you know, that's why these, you know, podcasts like Mucku are so important.

You know, an important way to get your message out. And any chance I get a chance to, anytime I get a chance to, to participate, you know, I'm all in.

I'm excited to have this conversation and grateful that, that, that, you know, you're continuing in this fight and putting out good messages.

David Wheeler: 00:02:13

Well, we, we certainly appreciate that vote of confidence. And, you know, back to Washington. What, what are your impressions of what's really going on there?

Is this all just them dumping as much as they can on the table to see what happens, or is this what the next four years is going to be like, in your opinion?

Wiley Nickel: 00:02:29

No, I mean, it's, it's, it's it's worse than, than it, than, than it seems. You know, they are flooding the zone. They're just throwing everything they can at the wall. And, you know, it's, it's a scary time for our democracy.

I, I, I think at the end our democracy will bend, but it won't break. But the courts are especially important now, and they just continue to do so much. And, you know, traditional media can only respond.

You know, you can only really respond to just a few things. And they're doing dozens and dozens of things every day and just hoping that folks won't pay attention.

So I think part of it is we need to, we need to change our approach and how we respond to Trump. That's, that's the first thing.

And, you know, one of the things that I pushed out and, you know, I've been talking about as much as I possibly can is how we respond to Trump and what we have to do differently.

And so right after the election, I did an opinion piece in the Washington Post where I outlined a new way to respond to Trump, borrowing from the British, the Canadians, the Australians, who've done this for 100 years by forming, you know, a loyal opposition shadow cabinet.

That way they have their, where we would put our best and brightest in the, in the US Congress, you know, in these positions, the way they do in Great Britain. And it's not, it's not, you know, we're not appointing people to the cabinet.

We just put our messengers there to be watchdogs and to put out our positive message. And that's one of the things that I'm continuing to push.

I hope we do and would allow us to, you know, get our best folks there as, as the, the watchdogs for each agency and putting out our positive message.

Col Moe Davis: 00:04:07

How do you think that's been going? I mean, it seems like, you know, the messaging on the Democratic side has been muted at best.

I think an example of that is what's going on with, with fema, you know, and they fired the, you know, the FEMA workers that allegedly were, you know, botching the housing migrants up in New York City, you know, and Elon and Trump both claim that 59, I think it was $59 million was divert relief, which is certainly an important topic here in western North Carolina, and used to put migrants up in luxury hotels. And it totally ignores the fact that the disaster funding and the migrant housing funding are two separate appropriations.

And you had Tom Tillis and Chuck Edwards and Virginia Fox all voted for that funding for migrant housing. But they're conflating all this to mislead the public. And I really haven't seen the Democrats with a strong response to that.

Wiley Nickel: 00:05:01

No, I mean, it's been really frustrating, you know, and it's, it's the, the same play they continue to use.

Anytime you have a, a natural disaster, a lot of it, you know, I think is, is Russian backed, where they want to sow chaos and confusion and use these, these, you know, disasters to say, well, you know, we, you're giving money to Ukraine and you shouldn't be giving it to, to this disaster. I mean, and there's a million ways they approach these things, but, you know, the, the stuff that, that you hear, especially on fema.

I traveled to western North Carolina on a congressional delegation visit, just ended last year, to see for myself. But everybody who understands what's happening knows that no one's stealing any money. Everything.

You know, people are working incredibly hard to provide support throughout western North Carolina. We've allocated, you know, billions of dollars at the federal level. The state needs to do a lot more.

But, you know, the, the, you know, the, the way that bad information continues to get out there, it's a real problem, and we're just not able to keep up with it the way we used to.

When you had, you know, more traditional forms of media, you know, I remember growing up and we just had the evening news, newspapers, you know, maybe you'd get Time in Newsweek at the end of the week and, and you had, you know, folks who kept everyone honest. And, and now you just have so much better, you know, and, and just to back to my point about the shadow cabinet, just do the one small thing.

If we did that, if we had a shadow cabinet, we'd have a Democrat who we'd appoint to female, and there'd be one person in Congress who would be the messenger, the person to say, you know, who understands what's happening and is that trusted source for our position on these issues.

And when everybody looks for answers, you know, instead of going to every single member of Congress and, you know, everybody out there for, you know, to get a response, you have someone, it's their job to understand the issues, to dig in and to be that Democratic response when Trump continues to lie and lie and lie, because we know he will.

Col Moe Davis: 00:07:00

Yeah, I've referred to their strategy as MSU making up, because they just make stuff up and throw it out there. And the MAGA base just feasts on that stuff.

Like there's a piece in the Washington Post about, you know, Trump claiming That I guess they're referred to in his doji, I think it's doggy. They're. The Elon Trump Organization has saved, he said 10, 20, maybe as much as $500 billion.

And the post went through and added up what Doji claims they've saved, and it's like 2 billion, but still, you know, they throw those things out there and it stick.

Wiley Nickel: 00:07:34

No, it's, it's a, it's, it's really difficult keeping up with the bad information, the misinformation, and, you know, that that's, that's what they do. Well, I mean, the big lie works if you just repeat it over and over. And, and the more you repeat it, the more other people start to believe it.

When you have Elon Musk with this tremendous megaphone, not just the, you know, $250 million he spent on the last election for, you know, you're talking about the megaphone he has with Twitter where he can go and, and promote these, promote this bad and get that out there.

You know, so we, we need to continue pushing back at every chance, but the, the, the mechanisms and the vehicles they have are, are, you know, doing, you know, a lot of damage there. And, you know, our side, we need to just build up our own.

We need to be supporting podcasts like this and so many other places where we can get out our truthful information.

David Wheeler: 00:08:26

In response to, you know, one of the things I was, as we all probably do these days, laying in bed at night thinking, how the did we get into this mess? I got to thinking about Doge. And if you spell Doge backwards, it's E God. I wonder if that's true. You know, Elon is a God. Does he.

I mean, he acts like he thinks he's a God.

And, you know, yesterday in the, or two days ago in the Oval Office, steepling his fingers as if he's, you know, Moses from upon high, you know, what do you think his agenda is?

Wiley is a former member of Congress and somebody that, I don't know if you've met him or had any interaction with him, but, you know, you're both originally from California, I think, and what are your thoughts on that guy? And where is, where is he taking this country?

Wiley Nickel: 00:09:15

I mean, it's a really scary time, and it was harrowing for me to see that Oval Office scene from just the other day where you had Elon Musk with his hat on, standing next to the, the, the Resolute desk there in the Oval Office with his kid. And the kid is Is there saying to Trump, shush, shush, you shut your mouth.

And, and, and I swear I even heard too, that you're not really the president from the kids. So that's the stuff that you, you hear, you know, kids, kids at 3 years old, you know, just repeat with.

And so obviously people have, you know, Musk had been saying that stuff about Trump. So, you know, the fact that this guy has so much power is, is there and, and he is making money off of all of this.

You know, he, he just got a, a Tesla, got a $400 million security contract just the other day.

The conflicts of interest are all over the place, and it's, it's just incredibly scary what, what we're seeing with Musk and, and Trump, you know, obviously is indebted to him and is just letting him go on.

What, what I think is, you know, I don't know enough about, you know, I can't really say too much about the motivations, but it just seems like this guy is on this tremendous ego trip and, you know, we're, we're footing the bill.

David Wheeler: 00:10:28

That's right. That's right. I've got two other things that you kind of skipped over, my friend, and then I'll throw it back to mo but the U. S. Senate.

You're taking a look, huh?

Wiley Nickel: 00:10:38

We, we are. Yeah. No, it's, you know, one of the few races where we have a real chance to win. And, you know, I have a ton of work I want to finish.

My Congress got cut short because of Republican gerrymandering, and one two years ago, one of just six Republican seats that we flipped in that last con, and we've got a real chance to, to flip a seat.

And, you know, you don't have to look very far for, for reasons here as Thom Tillis continues to be a spineless weasel in, in Washington, you know, continually voting against North Carolina and doing literally anything Trump tells him to do. I think we deserve better than that. We're taking a good look.

You know, there's a lot of other things on the table too, but that's one think, you know, will be especially important if we're ever gonna, you know, get things done in Washington. And, and for me, my personal issue, you know, ending partisan gerrymander. That's, that's, that's something that we can end.

As long as we just get 50 votes in the Senate and, and a majority in the House, you know, and a president who will sign a bill, we don't have to worry about the Supreme Court. So you know, my goal is, is how can we get bills like that through? And the Senate is one way we can do it.

David Wheeler: 00:11:47

Where are you when you're thinking on that race? Are you wait to see what other potentials are doing?

Wiley Nickel: 00:11:53

Yeah, you know, I mean, we're exploring it now. I just had a great two days in Charlotte talking to a ton of folks there. You know, my district was carrying Raleigh and eastern North Carolina.

So, you know, visiting, touring, getting a sense for the issues that folks care about. We're not quite there yet, but, you know, certainly taking a look. Good, good.

David Wheeler: 00:12:14

Well, we encourage you out here in western North Carolina to please look, because if, you know, we need a healthy primary too. I mean, I think that helps our party and helps these candidates learn more about, a lot more about the states because they're out traveling.

So your shadow cabinet idea, where is that? And how can we get Mo shadowed to the Department of Defense?

Wiley Nickel: 00:12:39

Well, you know, I did. I assigned a few people in this opinion piece just so folks would have an idea. I had Adam Schiff at, at the Department of Justice.

I had Adam Smith from Washington, a great member of the House assigned to the Department of Defense. But, you know, the, the.

David Wheeler: 00:12:56

Oh, well, that guy's gotta, that guy's gotta go. Come on, we gotta get Mo in there.

Wiley Nickel: 00:12:59

So, you know, but I've been pushing it with my, with my former colleagues in Congress. Everybody has read the opinion piece and, you know, it's. It's something that I'm hoping that, that Hakeem and Chuck Schumer will adopt.

But, you know, there's petitions out there for it, a ton of other folks. You know, Professor Timothy Snyder did a big substack about it. So, you know, it's out there and it's, it's.

You know, sometimes it just takes a little time for these things to boil.

But Mo, we need you, you know, we, we need folks standing up to Hegseth, you know, someone who I think is going to be absolutely a disaster for, for North Carolina and the armed forces.

So I hope, you know, you'll continue to use your platform, you know, as a colonel and as a, you know, remember the armed forces to, to stand up when you, when they continue to break norms, you know, and support them when they do things that are right. But, you know, from what I'm seeing, this is a guy who's just totally unqualified. And we have Thom Tillis to thank for, for his confirmation.

You know, it's, it's been reported over and over that Tillis told everybody he was going to oppose Hegseth on the day of the vote and folded like a deck of cards right at the end with pressure from Trump.

And that's, that's really kind of the, when, when you go and you, you take a position and then you fold like that, everybody knows in Washington at least you will fold over and over and over and it just shows who you serve.

And it's not that folks in here in North Carolina and, and even worse too, you saw there was this, the, the sister in law who said that she would, you know, put her story out and Tillis had given her the indication that if she, if she shared her story and went out there publicly, she'd have his support in opposition. And, and he went back on her, which is especially horrendous.

Col Moe Davis: 00:14:41

Yeah, it seemed like the 118th Congress was horrible in the 100, even worse, which is hard to imagine. But Itilis has been a real disappointment.

It almost seems like why even bother having Congress if there's going to be a rubber stamp for anything that, that Trump wants to do? Because there's certainly been no pushback on any of the things that would have been considered egregious, you know, just a couple of years ago.

He's just running roughshod with, you know, no checks and balances. So I agree with the hedge. Seth is a horrible, horrible choice.

And I've said a couple of times that it's, it's just incredible that we have a commander in chief and Secretary of Defense who can't meet the minimum standards of conduct that we demand of 18 year old recruits and to have to, you know, to look up to them and to follow orders from people that can't meet the standards of a, you know, the private that's arriving this week for basic training is just really bad for the country and for democracy and for, you know, the role that we've traditionally played around the world.

I want to ask you about another thing that has been in the headlines quite a bit and that's usaid which has been just scuttled, you know, in the first couple of weeks of Trump administration.

And it's a program that, I tell you, a lot of folks like myself who served in the military are big supporters of diplomacy because the best wars are the ones you never fight.

And the money that we spend, which is pennies on the dollar, I think the USAID budgets less than 1% of the federal budget and now they've just shut it down.

And it's having impacts not just, you know, overseas where People are starving and going through, you know, horrible, you know, things in their, in their own homeland that we traditionally have helped with.

But also here, where, you know, there are reports that there are, you know, millions and millions of dollars of agricultural exports that are rotting, that American farmers grew that just stopped because USAID was shut down. So I'd be interested in your thoughts on this effort to pull America back from its role as a world leader.

Wiley Nickel: 00:16:43

You know, it's really scary and it doesn't make any sense unless you look at it through the lens of Vladimir Putin, who Trump continues to, to get closer and closer with. You know, he's, he's, he's, he's, you know, attacking our democratic allies while cozying up to dictators like Putin.

They want the chaos, they want the US to, to withdraw from the world stage so that Russia and China can step in. And China is aggressively moving in these places where they're talking about USAID pulling, pulling out.

But, but it really, you know, to your point, this is just about diplomacy.

This is whether we are part of a global community and we do so well for our businesses, we do so well for our economy, we do so well for peace around the globe when we exert leadership. You know, I've traveled, you know, around the world during my time in Congress.

You know, whether it's, it's, you know, visiting Ukraine or, or, you know, Australia and the Pacific to see how these partnerships have strengthened our economy, strengthened our democracy. And it's a scary time when you start turning your back on these things.

These all are incredible tools for diplomacy, for getting again the, you know, helping, helping, you know, our economy by promoting U.S. businesses. Most of this money, you know, goes to U.S. companies.

And it's, it's really, you know, I think what, I think what, you know, what it is also, it's, it's bait and switch. What they really want to do is get more and more tax cuts for corporations in the, and when they attack a small line item for usaid.

And there's, there's absolutely going to be some line, line items somewhere in these massive, you know, budgets that people can disagree with. And sure, I can disagree, but, you know, on a whole, these are tremendous programs that truly allow us to, to project our strength and our values.

Col Moe Davis: 00:18:28

Yeah, it's, we had Tom Vilsack was on a couple of days ago with us and he was talking about, he's served 12 years as secretary of Agriculture.

And you know, he was saying that it's really kind of heartbreaking for him, him to see the demonization of federal employees that, you know, I worked after I left the military, I worked at Congressional Research Service and then at the Department of Labor.

And certainly in any organization, there are, you know, some people that shouldn't be on the payroll, but the overwhelming majority are dedicated folks that, you know, do what they do because they think they make a difference, and they do make a difference. And to see them demonized and demoralized is just, just a horrible thing to, to see happen. And especially to see the MAGA crowd cheering it on.

Wiley Nickel: 00:19:10

Yeah, it's really scary.

And what they're talking about, too, and what the Trump goal is, is to put party loya, these career positions and, and expand, you know, significantly the political appointees, you know, he has, which is, is something that people should be really worried about. And, you know, they tried to do it at the end of his last term, and they're starting with it again now.

And these buyouts are, are, are, you know, their way of trying to get out people that don't agree with Trump, you know, and, and put their own people in there.

And that's, that's a pretty scary thing that, you know, because the, the folks who serve in the armed forces, the folks in the civil service, you know, they're there to support the United States of America, regardless of who the President is. You know, we have a system of checks and balances. And there can, you know, you see Trump trying to just go around everybody.

He's going to try to go around Congress, he's going to try to go around the courts, and that's, you know, that's really scary. So, you know, the more I think you can, you can shine light on the good work that people do all throughout the government.

You know, people who work incredibly hard, and they're all over North Carolina, too. We've got, you know, a big EPA campus, you know, you know, at Research Triangle Park.

Just one of so many that I think about people doing amazing research there. But, you know, we have those all over North Carolina, and those are the folks that, that, you know, he's attacking and talking about.

And, you know, we need to, we need to let folks know all the good work they're doing.

David Wheeler: 00:20:34

So, Wiley, you know, we're looking at a tough couple years here. What do you think the Democrats did right in this last election here in North Carolina? And then what do you think Democrats have to work on?

Don't be easy on them.

Come on, I know you're a politician, but, you know, let's get serious about this because Mo and I have some opinions that we've shared on other shows and we think the Democrats need to get tougher. And, but we're also really interested in your perspective because you're in a different part of the state and you spent some time in Congress.

And so what, what are your thoughts on how do the Democrats start winning again in North.

Wiley Nickel: 00:21:12

Yeah, no, a thousand percent. You know, I think, I think it's, it's two things. Number one, just like you said, we need to be much tougher.

That's something I've been saying as well.

And I will stand with you any time of the day when we talk about things we ought to be doing to be a lot tougher in pushing back against Trump and talking about the things that we want to do. You know, and then number two is, is focusing on economic issues.

That's really why we've lost so many, you know, blue collar voters because we're not doing anywhere near a good enough job communicating our good positions on policies. We've lost this messaging back. And that was a big part of what happened in this last election.

Candidates who embraced that, you know, who's focused on housing and education and child care and, and health care. Those are the issues that the folks I represent, that's what they wanted to hear.

And, and we saw folks all over the country that were able to win in the same states that Trump won because they embraced, you know, that economic message. And you know, that's, that's at least my focus. That's what I did in Congress as part of the Congressional Dads caucus.

So, you know, I think those are, those are the things where you look and see how we won just about every race in North Carolina other than the presidency.

The big ones with, you know, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, Governor, Supreme Court, and, and Don Davis winning a real tough congressional seat in eastern North Carolina again.

And you look to Arizona, Nevada, Michigan, those are places where we, our Democrats won in the Senate, where Trump won, you know, but they embraced that.

I served with, you know, the, the many of the folks who won those races, you know, who went from the House to the Senate, Liz Slotkin, Ruben Gallego, and that was, that was their, their focus. And, and you know, they ran tough campaigns, so, and the voters rewarded them.

But, you know, I think part of it too is, is kind of talking about places like western North Carolina, you know, who, who are left out because of partisan gerrymandering. That's the thing that, that I've spent most of my time talking and I think as if we're talking about being tough. You got to talk about gerry.

Republican gerrymandering in North Carolina cost Democrats control of that. If we hadn't had this rare mid decade gerrymander, that, that erased my seat, it erased Kathy Mannings, it erased Jeff Jackson's.

Hakeem Jeffries would be the speaker of the House today with a 218 to 217 Congress. So those three seats that, that were gerrymandered away were literally the difference.

And then when you look at, you know, how gerrymandering has affected us nationally, Republicans are much tougher and they're much more ruthless with this.

And according to the, the nonpartisan Brennan center, and I agree with this wholeheartedly, Republicans have a 16 seat gerrymandering advantage nationwide. So there's some places where Democrats gerrymander, but there's far more districts where Republicans.

ok at the census coming up in: 2030

So places like western North Carolina where if you had a fair map, you'd be able to get Democrats elected, but you have a gerryman, that's going to always help Republicans and that's, you know, that's a real problem and it's, it's a reason we're not getting anything done in Congress. But we got to acknowledge the fact that Republicans are much tougher at this. They have done a much more effective job at carving up maps.

Now I have a bill for it that would do nationwide independent redistricting, put every state at the same, you know, with the same nonpartisan commission. That's the, the best way to go. But we're losing that for gerrymandering.

And in the last election, it cost us control of the House and it very well may in the next.

David Wheeler: 00:24:37

So what would you attribute, you know, Governor Stein and Lieutenant Governor Hunt and on down the line, some of those statewide, how are we winning those races but we're not winning it at a local level?

Wiley Nickel: 00:24:50

Well, you know, I mean, so much of it is, you know, I just look at it through the lens of districts. You know, if you have, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene in a safe, bright red Republican district in Georgia.

No, no matter, the best candidate in the world with millions and millions of dollars isn't going to beat her because she's in a safe red seat. And even In North Carolina, 40% of the voters voted for Mark Robinson even after they knew all of the horrible stuff about him.

So, you know, there's, you know, there's a limit for these districts. So, you know, I focus on the places where we have a shot, you know, and in North Carolina, they can't gerrymander the boundaries of our state.

So we're always going to be a competitive state. Nationwide, we're looking at really just seven swing states, again, determine the next presidency that matter. We're one of those.

So, you know, I take a lot of hope there. But your point about Jeff Jackson, Rachel Hunt, you know, they ran very strong campaigns.

You know, they had the, the resources to get out their positive message. They talked about the economy, talked about those economic issues that, that, you know, I continue to, to push and talk about as well.

And the voters rewarded them, you know, and, and, you know, I, I, I, I think that's that for me. I took a lot of lessons from those races, but certainly, like you really disappointed that, that we didn't get there for, for Harris.

But, you know, if you look at the country, more people voted for, for someone other than Trump in this last election. It was a very close race. You know, just 110,000 votes go the other way in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

And Trump is not in the Oval Office right now. So it was close, but it shouldn't have been and we should have done a better job communicating, and I think we should have been a lot tougher.

I, I, I think there's, you know, a number of things that, you know, any candidate for president ought to do. And I spent a lot of time talking about immigration, you know, and securing the southern border, fixing a broken immigration system.

I think Harris, you know, could have done a much better job there, too, because that was a big issue for folks and, and we continue to see that play out in the campaign.

Col Moe Davis: 00:26:48

I think you're exactly right about North Carolina and it's, I mean, we truly are a purple state. I mean, I think we're probably the most purple state in the country.

We're, you know, for, I guess what, three, four elections now, we've elected a Democratic governor at the same time that the state went for the Republican for president. But you're right with the, with gerrymandering.

I mean, Republicans get 50% of the votes in the state, but they end up getting 72% of the seats in the, in Congress.

And the only way you can make 50% into 72% is by cheating and drawing the Lines to, you know, where you're, you're picking your voters rather than the voters picking their representative. And that's, it's wrong regardless of which party's doing it. That's not the way democracy is supposed to work. But what did Democrats do?

I mean, if you've seen the polling where I think it's 31% of the country has a favorable opinion of Democrat, 59% have an unfavorable.

It just seems like we've done a horrible job of messaging that I think Joe Biden, you know, history will look back and, you know, rate him as a, as a pretty damn good president who did some good things, but he didn't get credit for me, got blamed for things that, I mean, some, he should have, but a lot of things that he, that he shouldn't have gotten blamed for because we did a bad job of getting that message out. And it's going to get harder.

You know, now that, you know, you mentioned Elon taking over Twitter, you know, Zuckerberg has kind of surrendered Facebook. The mainstream media is bowed down to, to Trump. So getting the message out is going to be even more difficult going forward.

So how do we overcome that hurdle and get the truth out to the American people?

Wiley Nickel: 00:28:24

Well, you know, just to your point about, you know, these companies bowing down, you know, they're bowing down and they're, they're paying, they're literally paying blackmail money to Trump. Twitter, I just saw the other day did, it was $10 million to settle a bogus lawsuit about him being, you know, booted off the platform.

You know, that's, that's just nuts to me that this is a lot, this is happening without too much attention, that all these companies are settling these bogus lawsuits and giving Trump millions, literally just money into his pocket as president, United States. You know, but to your point about the Democratic brand, you know, it's, it's a, it's, it is, it has been hit hard. And I point back to one thing.

I, I think for my time in Congress that, that I take as the lens. I look at this.

In this last election, the New York Times did an analysis of every seat, every state legislative seat in the country and every congressional seat. He found that eight person, only 8% of the congressional seats were competitive and only 7% of the state legislative seats were competitive.

And, and that's that real divide that I saw in Congress wasn't Democrats or versus Republicans. It was safe seats versus competitive seats.

And I, I got to Congress in one of those rare competitive seats a Republican leaning seat could have gone either way was part of that, you know, small percentage, less than 10% of the seats that are competitive. And, and because of that it, you know, the folks in Washington, their only concern for over 90% is getting through a Democratic primary or republic.

So the messages you hear over and over are about appealing to the far left or the far right.

And so Republicans have done a really good job elevating and highlighting the, the most extreme voices in our party and branding the whole party with that message. And when I served in Congress, most of the people I worked with, you know, were right there in the center trying to get things done.

You know, because of gerrymandering, we had the least productive Congresses in our nation's history. I think, I think this next Congress is going to be more of the same. The only small silver lining I see in, in the U.S.

house of Representatives is how incredibly small that majority is. For the Republicans it's just a three seat majority and for the next few months it's going to be a one seat majority.

So literally you have some big bill coming up and someone misses a flight, the whole bill might go down so incredibly close. But you know, that silver lining for me is just how incapable Republicans in the House are at governing, working together, getting on the same page.

And you know, so I, I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful that at least that will continue in terms of avoiding some of the really worst of what could happen out of the House. But Trump, Trump is just, is moving regardless of the House. He's going to try to go around him and that's.

That for me is, is, is one of the more scary things. And I think he's going to do it because the House, you know, Republicans are so inept and incapable of getting their act together.

But keep a close eye on the House and the vote counts because every single one is going to be an incredibly close vote. And who shows up is going to be a big part of what happens in the US Congress over the next.

Col Moe Davis: 00:31:24

Yeah, I'm curious to see what's going to happen with the.

Mike Johnson, I think yesterday came out with the proposal on the 10 year plan with the, I think it was at a $4 trillion, four and a half trillion dollar tax cut some and to pay for that, you know, some massive cuts to Medicaid which in North Carolina was, you know, thanks to Tom Tillis and Chuck Edwards. You know, we drug our feet for years and years and years on Medicaid expansion.

And now after we've achieved it, the, you know, Congress is looking at making a massive cut to the, to the Medicaid program which is going to, you know, tax cuts are going to help the rich and cutting Medicaid is going to hurt the poor.

But it'll be interesting to see if, if he can muster the votes because this is going to add a, I think I saw where, you know, it'll push US towards a $40 trillion national debt. And apparently debt and deficit only matters when a Democrat's in the White House.

But what do you think's going to happen with it with this budget bill that Johnson's laid out?

Wiley Nickel: 00:32:19

Yeah, I mean, I think the best, the best Republicans can do is just massive tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy. That's the one thing they all agree on.

And it's gonna, to your point, a thousand percent, it is gonna, you know, be a huge hit on the deficit and the debt. They will rack up those costs and you know, our kids are going to be the ones paying for it.

You're close to a hundred thousand dollars a person as our, every single person in the United States share of that national.

And you know, I've, I've fought and fought and fought in Congress as a member of the Problem Solvers Caucus, the group in the center, trying to, to bridge these divides, you know, to, to get stuff done. And it's an incredibly difficult, you know, time for that, you know, in large part because of gerrymandering.

But you know, we, we, we, we have to deal with, with spending and I agree with Republicans on that. But it, but it's also, it's also a revenue issue. And so, you know, they're at making corporations, the wealthy pay their fair share is part of this.

And my hope is, you know, if we're actually really going to solve these problems, it's going to be done in a bipartisan way. Spending and we deal with revenue. That's the only way we're going to solve this.

But, but giving massive tax cuts and saying, oh, it's going to make the economy so strong, it doesn't matter. It's just, it's, it's a fantasy and it's been proven wrong over and over and over again.

Of course, the only people who benefit are those at, in the, the very top. The billionaires who supported Donald Trump are going to do really, really well.

But you know, the, the folks, you know, middle class North Carolinians are going to get totally screwed. And you know, and just one other point on that that I, you know, keep making anytime I Can we look, you look at the spending for Republicans.

In the last election, you had basically a hundred people who, who accounted for half of all spending for Republicans. These are maybe close to billionaires and billionaires, you know, a hundred people accounting for close to half of the spending.

So if you're the Republicans and you're looking at, to fill half of your campaign coffers, you know, for every race, you know, and you're only looking at 100 people, you, you sure bet those are the people who are going to be saying, cut my taxes if you want me to keep giving you money. And that's what they're going to do.

Col Moe Davis: 00:34:29

Well, and you've seen it, too, with Trump's actions in the last few days.

He is suspending the Foreign Corrupt Practices act to allow American corporations to bribe foreign officials, and then shutting down the Consumer Financial Protection Agency, which is, was put into place to stop big financial institutions from preying on ordinary Americans. So it's pretty clear where, where the priorities are.

Wiley Nickel: 00:34:53

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and they're, they're just not getting enough attention on any of this because they're doing 20 other things at the same time.

North Carolina's own Hampton Dellinger is, was one of those who has a, a very important watchdog position in, in Washington. They're trying to, to sideline him as well.

So, you know, put, you know, include him in, in that list as well, because they, they don't want any, they, they want no accountability, and that's the only way they get away with what they're doing. So, you know, those, those, those government watchdogs are incredibly important.

David Wheeler: 00:35:27

And then the Democrats are going to have to come in and clean it all up again. I mean, we do this, why is it we're the only adults in the room?

I mean, the Reagan tax cuts, Clinton came in and balanced the budget, Bush came in, Obama had to clean that up. Trump comes in and then Biden makes some really good strides on these issues. Why is it the Democrats always have to be the adults in the room?

Why don't we just let them? You know, there's a certain side of me that says, okay, well, they've got power.

If they want to run this country into the ground, let them, because they're going to pay the consequences for it.

Wiley Nickel: 00:36:00

Well, you know, I hope, I hope my, my colleagues in Congress are going to take that point about getting tough on all of this, because if Republicans want to do it, they should do it with Republican votes only because they have, they have control of the House and Senate, you know, but, but when I served in Congress, it was, again, it was Democrats stepping up to be the adults in the room.

All of the, the things that we did in this con, the big, the only big things we did in the House were all bipartisan because Republicans couldn't get their act together. They had to come to us to, to fund the government.

Over and over, these continuing resolutions to keep the lights on were supported by more Democrats than Republicans.

And, you know, that was the passing a budget, it was raising the debt ceiling, it was providing, you know, needed support to Israel, Ukraine and Taiwan. Those are all things that Democrats did. And we did. It didn't do it because we wanted to screw Republicans.

We did it because it was the right thing to do for the country. And I, you know, I think, think we'll, we'll continue to see that, you know, but, but the mess is going to be significant here.

And, and again, we came so close to getting back the House. And if we had done that, you know, these, these massive tax cuts for, for billionaires and corporations, you know, wouldn't have happened.

And, you know, we're going to be, we're all going to be paying the price. We're all going to be footing that bill over the next decade as we, we clean up, whatever, whatever happens.

But, you know, we got to make sure they pay a price for this. We got to educate people on, on really what they're doing.

And it doesn't, it's, it's not complicated to realize that, you know, if you're going to give away all your money to these corporations and, and the, the ultra wealthy, you know, you're not gonna have money to, to fix the roads, to pay for healthcare, to pay for a good quality education for our kids, and to provide those basic services that so many of us rely on. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. So that's, that's a place where, you know, I think hopefully we're going to see them fall short.

But, but I'm, I'm very worried.

David Wheeler: 00:37:57

Yeah, I hear you, I hear you. And obviously nobody wants to run the country into the ground, but it just seems to me like they need to pay the price at some point, and I don't.

The Democrats are really bad at that. And I don't understand, or maybe it's just too complicated these days, but we don't seem to have a formula to do that. But.

All right, let's move on here to something more fun. So you and I are both advanced guys. Tell us your most fun story about doing advance for President Obama or candidate Obama?

Wiley Nickel: 00:38:27

Yeah, I mean, advance was, was fantastic. If anyone, you know, is listening doesn't understand it, you know, we're the ones who went out and organized all these, these events.

I, I started for Al Gore and traveled all over the world with him and later for, for President Obama. You know, my thing is I did the big rallies, so organized these 10, 20, 100,000 person rallies and one of the, one of the best jobs you'll ever have.

ally in Manassas, Virginia in: 2008

And I didn't sleep for three days. And we, we got over a hundred thousand people at this rally. His last of the campaign.

You know, I remember that momentum we needed to get Virginia over the top for the first time. And we did. We had that tremendous momentum and energy from that rally.

People, people, you know, because we didn't, you know, we had such a huge crowd. People parked three and a half miles away to, because of the location we had to get there and because there's so many cars and.

But they showed up, they came and they got him. They carried him over the finish line. That was one of the better ones. There's so many of those great ones. I'm sure, David, you got a ton.

el that energy we had in that: 2008

Because, you know, by the way, that was the last time we won a Senate seat in North Carolina. So we got to find that energy again.

And that's, that's, that's, I think, you know, it can be, you know, a lot of less positive things to say right now about politics. It's nice to remember that those, those important moments that certainly were big highlights.

David Wheeler: 00:40:19

similar last event in Iowa in: 2008

We had the largest crowd in Iowa history. Wasn't quite a hundred thousand, but man, those were the days.

s announcement In February of: 2007

Snow was piled up on all of the parking lot, and people parked their cars on top of the snow piles to get into this event. So we couldn't get his bus, and. And I get a frantic call from George Caudill, who I'm sure you know, and he said, wheeler, where are you?

We can't get to the door.

So I ran out the door and found the bus founded on the bus, and assumed I was going to get my ass reamed for, you know, not being able to get the bus up to the door. And he looked at me. He could tell I was frustrated, and the people on the bus were a little frustrated.

And he said, listen, boy, David, you packed him in here. This is terrific. Grab Michelle's arm. Let's go. And in that moment, he just diffused all of the tension in the room and on the bus.

And I will never forget that feeling and what he did to me, because then I relax. And we had a. You know, we had a terrific event, but I'm sure you've got a hundred stories like that.

Wiley Nickel: 00:41:48

Oh, I love that it was so cold in Iowa then, too.

David Wheeler: 00:41:51

Oh, geez. Yeah, it was almost. I think it was seven or eight degrees that day. And I'm running outside with your sleeves and in jeans, but. All right, Wiley.

Well, I'm gonna get most have one more question, and then we'll wrap this up and. And call it a day. Go ahead, Mo. Oops. I think you're. Well, edit this out, but you're unmuted or you're muted. Mo.

Col Moe Davis: 00:42:13

Yes.

David Wheeler: 00:42:14

Okay, go ahead.

Col Moe Davis: 00:42:15

I've been a member of the U. S.

Supreme court bar for about 36 years now, and it always struck me as his odd years ago, when, you know, Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg were polar opposites on the court, but off the court, they were really close friends that, you know, their spouses, you know, go out to dinner and to the opera and to events, and they were the best of friends, although you would never know it if you saw them in the courtroom. I'm just wondering, in Congress, did you have a. Did you see anything like that where people that you wouldn't expect to get along that actually did?

Wiley Nickel: 00:42:48

No, of course. And first and foremost, that was my. My approach to my time as a North Carolina senator and as a member of Congress.

I think you go there to be a diplomat, to build those bridges and even the crazy ones. You know, I worked incredibly hard to build those relationships with everybody, Democrats, Republicans and the like.

You know that in, in, you know, when you serve in a, a body in the house of 435 people, you'll get nothing done by yourself. Anyone who tells you they can do something on their own is nuts. And it's just not, it won't happen.

You only get things done if you build relationships. And so the relationships really were the most important part of my work in Congress.

And so no, I, I, you know, I, I, I, I try to find, find the good in every single person that I serve with. And, and you go there to do big things.

And the only thing, the only way you're going to do big things is if you, you can build support from, from different parts of, of the U S.

Congress, so on, on a vote, you know, anybody could be part of a coalition to help get your bill across the finish line or, or at the very least not just kill it before it even gets moving.

So no, I, I, I, I, I embrace the, you know, the idea of fighting about issues and then, and then going, getting a, you know, a bourbon after votes and, and did that with a number of my, my Republican colleagues and my Democratic colleagues. But there's, you know, the stuff you see on tv, so much of it is just, is, is just for the cameras and it's totally fake.

Like, Nancy Mace is probably one of the, the, the best examples of someone who's just totally, totally full of it in front of the camera.

And you know, they, and they just acting, it's, it's just performative that, and, and, and really you only have maybe 20 on each side, Democrats and 20 Republicans. They're really there. Most, most, most are not, you know, they're trying to get things done, they're trying to work together.

You know, I, I built relationships with Patrick McHenry who is the chair of my, my House, my committee, Financial services Committee, you know, and we're able to do a lot because you know, you build those relationships. But you know, the, the reality for me was, was very different from what you see on tv. And you know, I just don't have the mean bone.

You go to work, you try to be respectful of ever everyone. And for the, the folks who can't do that for me are, I'm very disappointed by the ones who don't see their job is as building relationships.

David Wheeler: 00:45:12

All right, well, you said the keyword for mo Bourbon. What's your Favorite, what's your favorite?

Wiley Nickel: 00:45:17

You know, I, I love a good Woodford Old Fashioned. Yeah, Mo, anytime you want to knock, I, I, and I like, I like bourbon neat. So anytime you want to get a good bourbon, I'm all there.

What, what, what about you guys? You have a favorite?

Col Moe Davis: 00:45:31

Yeah, you know, it's funny, I'm, I'm a bourbon guy, and I had never had an Old Fashioned until about a year ago, and now I'm, I'm hooked on them. I don't know, I just tried recently. I don't know if you've Uncle Nearest, I don't know if you've tried it.

Uncle Nearest was a slave who taught Jack Daniels how to make whiskey, and his family has revived the recipes. And, you know, it's not an outrageously expensive, but one that I found recently that I think is really good.

Wiley Nickel: 00:45:59

I'm writing that down. That sounds great.

David Wheeler: 00:46:01

Well, here's another one to write down. Wiley. I'm more of a scotch guy. Although bourbon, I'm not opposed to it, but I'm not really opposed to any alcohol.

But there's a really good one down here in of all places, Rutherford County. And nothing against Rutherford county, but full of the goddamn Republicans. But Defiance is a whiskey that's out of there.

That Scotch whiskey that's made here, I think it's got some organic additive or organic ingredients, and it's just as soft and as sweet and as smooth as you can get. It's really good stuff. I, I highly recommend Rutherford County's Defiance.

Wiley Nickel: 00:46:43

So that sounds great. I'm writing that down and I love.

David Wheeler: 00:46:46

The name too, so. All right, well, Representative Wiley Nicholl, thank you so much for joining us.

Can you give us a website and any other plugs that you want to add on the podcast here so folks can connect with you?

Wiley Nickel: 00:47:02

Yeah, no, please, please, you know, connect. Social media is great. It's at Wiley Nickel on Twitter and Wiley Nickel NC on Facebook. Wileynickel.com is my website.

So please, you know, connect with us and, and stay in touch, but really grateful for the chance to, to visit and talk and hopefully, you know, the, the conversation we're having about getting tougher as a party pays off some real dividend in this next election.

David Wheeler: 00:47:28

Yeah, well, we really appreciate you joining us and you've got a lot going on and, you know, I'm just so disappointed that folks like you and Mo are not in Congress. Can you imagine the world with you and Mo and Kathy Manning back and others?

We got to work towards that and give folks some hope, and you're the right guy to deliver that message. Whatever you do, please make sure we know what you're gonna, what path you're headed down.

Because you're a great guy, great American, and the kind of guy that Mo and I would probably stick our neck out for. So thank you again for joining us. And I've got one plug. Mo, tell us about your book. And then we're gonna let Wiley go and I'll send him a copy of it.

Col Moe Davis: 00:48:10

Sure. Yeah. It's called Sovereign Oak. It's a historical novel.

It tells three stories of historical events that actually happened within walking distance of where I live here in Asheville. Then the last part is a purely fictional tale, but I've rushed to get the book out.

It's available on Amazon, and I'm donating 100% of the profits from the book to Hurricane Helene Relief here in western North Carolina.

So if you buy a copy between now and the end of February, that's going to be split between an organization here called Beloved Asheville and then Asheville Habitat for Humanity.

Those are two organizations that are working on affordable housing and also helping folks that suffer damage during Helene to get their homes repaired to make them livable again.

David Wheeler: 00:48:55

Terrific. So that's sovereign oak on Amazon.com folks. Again, thank you for joining us. Representative Wiley Nichol here on Monkey you.

Speaker D: 00:49:09

This has been Muck you, co hosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville, North Carolina, and David Wheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina. Thanks to our friend and guest today, Representative Wiley Nichol, for taking time to join our conversation. Muck you.

merican Muckrakers. Copyright: 2025